billw
The Tattooed One
I’ve had a good gander at their stuff and it’s certainly different, but I’d rather have LN and Veritas planes.
Quick Review: Bridge City Toolworks CS-3 Centre Scribe
- Thread starter Andy Kev.
- Start date
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A mate of mine, who trained as an engineer, has one of the scaffoldy-looking block planes from Bridge City. He says that the lever mechanism for holding the blade in place is a tip top bit of engineering. I had a quick go with it and it was certainly ergonomically good. There was of course nothing to suggest that it cuts any better than e.g. a Veritas block plane but then again I imagine that the same could be said of Karl Holtey planes (and I would love to own one of his block planes!)
I almost bought a holtey A13 here a few years ago. I'm glad I didn't, as most of the aspects of it above and beyond a typical stanley are collector's fare (and I would've been cut off by the mrs. for a record duration, for sure).
As you say, for someone who likes the aspects and the nerdy bits, that's the draw. Not outright performance. The performance has to be credible, but the nerdy bits are the real draw.
As far as smoothing planes go, nothing really beats a stanley 4 (or whatever your preferred size) once the plane is learned and mastered. But, I still have about 10 infills here. None of them can plane anything that a stanley can't, but the nerdy bits about them is pleasing. I think it's fair to say that in a day's work, most of the infills would be less productive than the stanley just because they are slightly less ergonomically perfect in heavy use and most are heavier, but all work credibly well.
John E has had a bunch of blogging and literature here extolling the virtues of modern process, and he has the same kind of confidence that a relative (sole business owner who did things different and made a lot of money due to his ability to codify processes in his work and then automate them) of mine has. Single minded and can be overbearing sometimes. That confidence can be productive, though. I get the sense that if you could issue truth serum to John E and say "who has revolutionized tool making more than anyone else, and who has offered their customers more than anyone else". He'd say "!!...what MEEE ...are you crazy?"
I could be wrong about that, but I know my relative would respond that.
I had enough of lean manufacturing and design in my youth working in a factory where they were implementing lean, and we heard nothing but lean talk all day every day - it was like a cult. They shut their doors in 2008 - they were really efficient but lost focus some on trying to go upmarket where the margins were bigger.
As you say, for someone who likes the aspects and the nerdy bits, that's the draw. Not outright performance. The performance has to be credible, but the nerdy bits are the real draw.
As far as smoothing planes go, nothing really beats a stanley 4 (or whatever your preferred size) once the plane is learned and mastered. But, I still have about 10 infills here. None of them can plane anything that a stanley can't, but the nerdy bits about them is pleasing. I think it's fair to say that in a day's work, most of the infills would be less productive than the stanley just because they are slightly less ergonomically perfect in heavy use and most are heavier, but all work credibly well.
John E has had a bunch of blogging and literature here extolling the virtues of modern process, and he has the same kind of confidence that a relative (sole business owner who did things different and made a lot of money due to his ability to codify processes in his work and then automate them) of mine has. Single minded and can be overbearing sometimes. That confidence can be productive, though. I get the sense that if you could issue truth serum to John E and say "who has revolutionized tool making more than anyone else, and who has offered their customers more than anyone else". He'd say "!!...what MEEE ...are you crazy?"
I could be wrong about that, but I know my relative would respond that.
I had enough of lean manufacturing and design in my youth working in a factory where they were implementing lean, and we heard nothing but lean talk all day every day - it was like a cult. They shut their doors in 2008 - they were really efficient but lost focus some on trying to go upmarket where the margins were bigger.
DW,
this is the link to the BC dual angle smoothing plane:
https://bridgecitytools.com/products/hp-12-smoothing-plane
The first and most obvious thing is the price. I reckon that if they got it down to about 250 GBP they might have a commercial success on their hands. Just the idea of supplying it with what are effectively four easily interchangeable blades is a clever stroke.
The second thing is the aesthetics. Their effect is marked and strong to say the least. It would be very difficult for those of us who are used to the wood of traditional designs to take to the looks of it.
The third thing is that there are probably few people out there who have used this sort of plane day in, day out over a number of years and so be in a position to report on it.
I think that people like John E. do provide a valuable service. There's also clearly a fair bit of talent involved in taking an original and innovative approach to making tools when other designs have been functioning very successfully for many years.
Out of interest, is there anybody on here who has tried that plane?
this is the link to the BC dual angle smoothing plane:
https://bridgecitytools.com/products/hp-12-smoothing-plane
The first and most obvious thing is the price. I reckon that if they got it down to about 250 GBP they might have a commercial success on their hands. Just the idea of supplying it with what are effectively four easily interchangeable blades is a clever stroke.
The second thing is the aesthetics. Their effect is marked and strong to say the least. It would be very difficult for those of us who are used to the wood of traditional designs to take to the looks of it.
The third thing is that there are probably few people out there who have used this sort of plane day in, day out over a number of years and so be in a position to report on it.
I think that people like John E. do provide a valuable service. There's also clearly a fair bit of talent involved in taking an original and innovative approach to making tools when other designs have been functioning very successfully for many years.
Out of interest, is there anybody on here who has tried that plane?
clogs
just can't decide
D-W,
to the best of my knowl. we get ripped of on tooling here......
I once spoke to the DeWalt rep a few years ago and complained about the price difference of their tools......
HE said quote "we charge as much as we can get away with in the Euro market"......
some of the stuff was double the US cost.....
it's even worse in France or was at least a year ago....again some noted tool brands are almost double what they cost in the UK.....
I suppose it's just best to spend time on research....thank's to you guy's for the internet.....
I dont mind paying a fair price for anything and we all must earn a living.....
BUT
management don't seam to realise if you make n sell stuff thats affordable well all buy it.....
A bit like modern cars.....
we all know they are troublesome but at 1/2 the current price we wouldnt bother with the rusty rubbish we drive around in.....
Im def a big fan of US tooling, just wish we could buy at your prices.....but we are just a dot on the sales charts compared with the quantity sold in the US....
Even as a lad [now 72] decent stuff was always only JUST atainable......we bought exWD [war department] where poss when starting out.....
to the best of my knowl. we get ripped of on tooling here......
I once spoke to the DeWalt rep a few years ago and complained about the price difference of their tools......
HE said quote "we charge as much as we can get away with in the Euro market"......
some of the stuff was double the US cost.....
it's even worse in France or was at least a year ago....again some noted tool brands are almost double what they cost in the UK.....
I suppose it's just best to spend time on research....thank's to you guy's for the internet.....
I dont mind paying a fair price for anything and we all must earn a living.....
BUT
management don't seam to realise if you make n sell stuff thats affordable well all buy it.....
A bit like modern cars.....
we all know they are troublesome but at 1/2 the current price we wouldnt bother with the rusty rubbish we drive around in.....
Im def a big fan of US tooling, just wish we could buy at your prices.....but we are just a dot on the sales charts compared with the quantity sold in the US....
Even as a lad [now 72] decent stuff was always only JUST atainable......we bought exWD [war department] where poss when starting out.....
It definitely takes talent. Actually, any of the manufacturers involved in anything affordable enough for us to buy but still be premium (and do it over and over and over, even on a tuesday afternoon when people in the factory are thinking about the evening football game coming up) are displaying way more than just talent. My comment about self promotion and kaizen and lean and such is that it's kind of a boring narrative to me, but for each of me, there's an engineer working somewhere who will like the tools *better* because that's the underlying philosophy.
I"ve made a lot of planes. I've made a lot of planes that weren't that comfortable at first before I learned the key aspects of bench planes that can't really be violated. That plane looks to me like unless the handle was really cold, it should be reasonably comfortable to use. IT would be a little more comfortable if the rear handle had a hump like stanley's but the angle is correct, as is the location relative to the mouth, and the mouth location with respect to the length of the plane is about right. It should be a good user plane. It probably wouldn't keep up with a stanley plane if someone knew how to use a cap iron, but somewhere south of 10% of woodworkers actually probably do that.
Despite being made in china, I can find no quibbles with that plane for $590. Everyone can have design and material quibbles, but that aside, its got a lot of parts in it and they're all well finished. There's just no way to do great finishing on all of the parts and crank it out cheaply. I'd bet their unit cost is less than 250gbp on a variable basis, but then one has to cover everything else. I'd bet LN's planes in material and manufacturing cost are about 1/3rd of the retail in the US, but then you add every bit of the company that's not direct manufacturing (engineering, investment in experimenting, support, management, accounting, compliance) and I'd bet that their true break even cost is probably about 2/3rds of retail. I can make an infill as accurate as LN's planes (obviously not going to cast anything) in squareness, sole, etc, and I'm fairly sure I can nail iron hardness within 1 on the c scale. But to make a smoother at a cost of $250 as consistent as theirs? No way. It takes me about 80 hours to make an infill smoother that matches theirs (the accuracy part is fun, but it's really only a small part of the time - needling over all visual finish issues and working slow enough to eliminate them is the time sink). If I had a mill and a surface grinder, I'd bet i could get the infills down to about 40 hours. After cost of materials, I could probably make $3 an hour matching LN's quality (obviously, larger scale and factory process and batching and CNC is where things start to make economic sense). I generally recommend people buy older tools and clean them up if their objective is woodworking because it makes more fiscal sense, but at the same time, if someone complains about a "$300 smoother from lie nielsen is a ripoff", I can only say "OK, go make one. Go make 20, let us know on the 20th once you've gotten some speed how many dollars per hour you can make at the same quality level. You might be able to match the average income in india".
Hopefully, my comments don't come across as a slight to the quality or finish of BCTWs tools - I think they're hard to knock in that aspect. John E's excitement about process and modern design from design through shipping a finished process has a lot to do with that, I'm sure.
I see now that patrick leach is starting to sell the older ones in his list, and they're none too inexpensive, so not sure how these aluminum and steel doodads will hold up ,but the originals have held value for their buyers.
I've seen that before (looking at prices of things over there). There are two things cheaper there that I know of. Sebo vacuums and Ashley Iles chisels (especially ex. vat). Other than that, there's not a whole lot, and you guys (and even worse in some cases, the aussies) get shelled.
...nearly forgot - marshall amplifiers. for some reason, anything made in the UK is 1 1/2 times as much here as it is in france and the UK (but the electrics prevent us from proxy shipping from there since were on 60 cycle 120v).
Interestingly enough (I may have said it here), I just sold an LN 62 to someone in france. He ended up paying a total of about $360 with shipping for a plane that I modified by correcting sole flatness. I wouldn't trust anyone who said they did that (i've seen efforts to lap flat soles that have made them mildly unflat), but I guess he didn't care.
We are treated more than fair in most cases here, but there are a few exceptions where we get shelled - japanese retailers who can speak english can make bank flipping $250 planes for $800 and doubling the price of retail on chisels. Just as the dewalt rep would probably say to you "I could cut prices and triple the volume, or I can keep prices where they are and make three times the profit per item and be in the same place with less work".
(the sebo issue is an oddball here -whoever owns the distribution rights has decided we're stupid. $800 for a vacuum that costs $550 equivalent in the UK with VAT and we have no VAT. Good arrangement for whoever is distributing. Not so great for the customer. Same vacuum with a commercial supply label on it (including sebo manual and parts list and all, made in germany) is $480. That's kind of my acid test, though - if something is more expensive here than australia or england, I know we're getting had by a middle player somewhere.
All that said, your used tool market is better than ours for everything but disston saws and stanley planes. Before ebay opened global shipping, a decent english parer sold for $100 a chisel here, and infills were double to triple. Same as above, a good opportunity for anyone dealing in enough volume to buy, ship and resell - not so great for the buyer. Now that we can buy your tools on ebay, i"m sure the pickings will get more scarce there - that same ebay wave happened here. You used to be able to get good tools locally, but it's a rarity now as every antique dealer with a smart phone can go to an auction and figure out that it makes little sense to sell that stuff locally when they can unload it in days on ebay and have cash in hand to go another round.
DW,
thanks for your thoughts on manufacturing costs: most informative.
I still wonder if getting the aesthetics of the BC planes accepted is the biggest hurdle the firm faces. I reckon they need to convince people that form has followed function and that there’s no design for design’s sake.
thanks for your thoughts on manufacturing costs: most informative.
I still wonder if getting the aesthetics of the BC planes accepted is the biggest hurdle the firm faces. I reckon they need to convince people that form has followed function and that there’s no design for design’s sake.
I think it's probably perceived as more safe to stick with the more traditional patterns (and LV has done well convincing people that the BU planes are a good simple swiss army knife).
If the bench planes were $300, BCTW may sell more of them, but not sure if BCTW would really like to get stuck making large numbers of something more pedestrian.
Most of what i see in antique auctions is measuring tools, and sometimes japanese saws.
I'd say yes to some extent on the aesthetics (something that looks familiar is safe. When it's familiar, highly lauded and cheaper, then definitely safer, I guess).
If the bench planes were $300, BCTW may sell more of them, but not sure if BCTW would really like to get stuck making large numbers of something more pedestrian.
Most of what i see in antique auctions is measuring tools, and sometimes japanese saws.
I'd say yes to some extent on the aesthetics (something that looks familiar is safe. When it's familiar, highly lauded and cheaper, then definitely safer, I guess).
