Questions about swapping inwards exterior door frame to outwards opening.

[Ttrees]

Hello
Just wondering if anyone could point me to an article or give advice on garage doors.
Having issues with damp ingress, small bit of rot, the shed is in a low spot and doors opening inwards, and can't think of any other way round this other than to change the door frame over if possible so the doors swing outwards,
making it possible to have a barrier for water behind, (but not directly)
and still open the doors.
If that might not be sorted by a strip.
I don't know whether the doors were matched to the frame and all installed backwards at once.
There could be profile to allow things to stay watertight.
I need to know the these details, i.e basics of a standard double door layout.
I can take photos later.

Will likely do some repairs and maybe make a skirt which would hopefully sort that out, should the doors also be on backwards.
Finish matching isn't obviously of concern as good design, and will get dealt with soon.
Going to take a proper look to see for fixings, be nice if they would be good big screws which might budge,
Have to check the bond with lintel of whatever type that is
(never looked)
Depth of jambs in ground if visible.
(That's one thing I can think of where this is possibly over my head)
as I'll be doing it for nothing, but want it done quick.

Other options maybe on the cards, but I can't find a solution on google or here in the search.
Going to look soon, been putting if off.
I might reply with some more knowledgeable information on how challenging this may be.
I think these details have gotya's written all over it.
Cheers

Tom

 

[Ttrees]

Hello again
Been trying to find the best answer to this, as it seems controversial,
but strangely an unheated debate regarding doors opening in or out.
All I know is the some of the colder countries and the Japanese have outward swinging doors.
Some folks concerned about security, with the hinge pins on show, I can see why.
Perhaps there's a way around this.

Seeing as there seems opinions both ways,
I've got to imagine a solution exists into a watertight but dry inward opening door?
Looking into Trevanion's post which I can't find again quick,
He suggested gaskets type solution on thresholds and the likes.

From what it appears is that a door with all that might be hung a bit taller than the floor, these doors are very close to the floor with no threshold, and a tight fit to the casing above.

Going to give you some piccys, see what ye think.
Could this be a solution?
(With some "channel drainage" suitably installed, presumably butted next to the gasket)

I had cement down to stop the water blowing in
Some rot is evident on the bottom stile on the right.
Will the same thing happen with the rubber gasket?

The camera makes the gaps look bigger, doors are rubbing on t'odd bit o grit
but you can see the water from some mild rain is finding it's way in,
sometimes further in than that paint splatter.

Eager to get my workshop back to normality
Opinions please?

Thanks folks

 

[joshvegas]

The hinge attack can be protected against with security hinges or studs the basically are both the same principal, studs on the hinge leaf interlock with a hole on the other leaf so when a hinge is attacked the door remains locked in.

You'be still need to protect against crowbard to the centre of the door which i guess is a bit easier or atleast quieter than haveing to knock a door in.

The biggest issue with opening outwards is do you have a big enough clear swing to open them? damp under the door at the moments suggests its flatoutside or possibly even sloping upwards away from the door.

You could just cast a lip on the outside to prevent water flowing in or put a channel in to divert it, a drip strip on the door would let water running down the door and being blown under the door. but ultimateley if its a low spot water is going to gather against the door in the end isn't it?

You'd get a lot of space back with outwards opening doors.

 

[Lorenzl]

Angle grind a slot in your cement and put in a piece of metal sticking up say 8mm; then put a weatherboard on your doors. That is basically how exterior doors used to be made, the rubber seals are mostly for insulation on new doors.

 

[Doug71]

Don't know if it will work in your situation but these are good although you need to be quite accurate with the clearances etc. You can get them in long lengths for pairs of doors.


https://www.marchesironmongery.co.uk/exitex-macclex-15-2-threshold-914mm-aluminium.html

 

[Yojevol]

Tom, I'm presently doing some restoration and improvement to my external double doors so your thread caught my eye.
Here are some pics of features that may help with your thought process:-

The basic door fits inside the frame and the external weatherboard cladding overlaps the outer face of the frame

A metal bar on the floor prevents water being blown in (although it didn't prevent a full flood during the 2007 storm - 4" in the w/s)

External hinges which cannot be tampered with whist the door is closed

Crash type door bolts which secure top and bottom on locking up

At the moment there is no drip bar over the doors - I'm just off to buy some timber to make one.

Whilst these doors are not completely windproof, the rest of the workshop is. So it's pretty snug once the doors are closed.
Brian

 

[Phil Pascoe]

As above.
https://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk...5l761hctjifILrTyZuFkGC-lbSyaFx_caAltIEALw_wcB

 

[Ttrees]

Some great suggestions

The hinge attack can be protected against with security hinges or studs the basically are both the same principal, studs on the hinge leaf interlock with a hole on the other leaf so when a hinge is attacked the door remains locked in.

You'be still need to protect against crowbard to the centre of the door which i guess is a bit easier or atleast quieter than haveing to knock a door in.

The biggest issue with opening outwards is do you have a big enough clear swing to open them? damp under the door at the moments suggests its flatoutside or possibly even sloping upwards away from the door.

You could just cast a lip on the outside to prevent water flowing in or put a channel in to divert it, a drip strip on the door would let water running down the door and being blown under the door. but ultimateley if its a low spot water is going to gather against the door in the end isn't it?

You'd get a lot of space back with outwards opening doors.

I'm not that concerned about the security aspect,
as the front doors are facing the tidy towns folks, everyone keeps an eye on each other kinda thing, and I can secure from the inside with absolute clutter.

Good to know about those hinges, which could be a later addition.
I could have full swing of the doors if I wanted to swap the frame around.
The land drops off around the door area, a low spot in the scheme of things
as the water comes down the driveway, and gets blown up tight to the doors.

I should have stated I wish to re-use the existing frame, as it's in very good nick.

I'd have no bother casting a big lip on front of the door, if that would work in conjunction with drainage channel
(a job which really needs doing for damp is sitting at the side going under house, if I can convince the landlord so)
But it would look a bit odd for the tidy towns folkies around here.

Not concerned about space gained from the doors opening outwards,
as only you guys get to see behind the doors.

Angle grind a slot in your cement and put in a piece of metal sticking up say 8mm; then put a weatherboard on your doors. That is basically how exterior doors used to be made, the rubber seals are mostly for insulation on new doors.

That seems something along the lines of my original thoughts regarding swapping the frame and doors around.
There are weatherboards on them already which do nothing with inward opening doors, but could be replaced with ones which are lower than the doors if opening outwards.

Don't know if it will work in your situation but these are good although you need to be quite accurate with the clearances etc. You can get them in long lengths for pairs of doors.


https://www.marchesironmongery.co.uk/exitex-macclex-15-2-threshold-914mm-aluminium.html

This could possibly be a plan,
Although it seems that these are designed to work with doors hung a bit higher.
It doesn't look like it's designed to be inset into concrete,
and wondering if it would function well being lower than visually specified
(I haven't looked into it)

Tom, I'm presently doing some restoration and improvement to my external double doors so your thread caught my eye.
Here are some pics of features that may help with your thought process:-

View attachment 140277
The basic door fits inside the frame and the external weatherboard cladding overlaps the outer face of the frame

View attachment 140278
A metal bar on the floor prevents water being blown in (although it didn't prevent a full flood during the 2007 storm - 4" in the w/s)

View attachment 140279
External hinges which cannot be tampered with whist the door is closed

View attachment 140280
Crash type door bolts which secure top and bottom on locking up

View attachment 140281
At the moment there is no drip bar over the doors - I'm just off to buy some timber to make one.

Whilst these doors are not completely windproof, the rest of the workshop is. So it's pretty snug once the doors are closed.
Brian

Your place looks snug, and that you possibly are looking to achieve a draft proof enclosure.
Although the rain gets blown into my workshop, I think we might be looking for differing specs in regards to absolutes,
as my doors don't seem to have issues apart from the ground,
there is a mating lap on both door edges, which might let some water in,
but could likely be easily fixed with a seal of sorts.

At this stage, I don't mind a bit of water,
if I can stop it from going past a point, and set it outwards again somehow,
without water sitting and rotting the doors or frame.

I can stick some clutter back again, so no one can see any light underneath,
and go back to being in my secret workshop.

Those hinges look a very good idea for one who wants to delay an unsuspecting would be opportunist.

As above.
https://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk...5l761hctjifILrTyZuFkGC-lbSyaFx_caAltIEALw_wcB

Those look dandy, and food for thought, should one have to drill new holes
it might make sense to keep in mind, should I reuse these for the time being.

I have some heavy stainless ones somewhere which I could add a tack onto which might get me by for some time.

Cheers for the link.

Yet to decide on the right approach, I'm expecting the landlord around soon,
but am afraid I might be waiting, as he's probably twice as reluctant as I am
to swap the frame over,
as I've suggested doing drainage for nothing bar material, as a win win, and haven't got any feedback after mentioning multiple times.
Such is life being a tenant.

Might be able to make one of those gaskets from a few car tires hanging around, lol,
and cast some drainage channel.

Keen to read more, found a few in the archives, but nothing easy and foolproof regarding inward swinging doors.

Cheers for the suggestions folks
Tom

 

[Ttrees]

What about changing the weatherboard for something not on the shelf?
i.e taking off the useless weatherboards,
and putting some flexible rubber sheet say 3mm thick
between, and installing the weatherboard again, or new ones (plenty of iroko)
taller than originally to account for the rubber bending.

Yes it would likely catch whilst being closed, but with some care it could be put back
as this door won't need be opened.

But how would I sort the lap between them...
Another thing on the same lines is installing the rubber strip into the ground,
say if I cast a drain like on channel drainage,
It would only need be a short run, at least for the meanwhile,
pointless in the long run regarding drainage, but I've got some cement, and another bag might do it.

Possibly could use some fairly thick rubber curtain I have at the folks,
and make some new weatherboards with an aptly wide groove to conceal the strip,
and do some fandangling when needed to close it.

I wouldn't mind having to avoid dragging or wheeling things across it.
Seems this may be the best solution so far?
It could even be removable...possibly.

Landlord has talked about a roller door before, so he can do what he likes then.
This suits me fine, and he might think the same should I give him some options.


Unless some of you suggest something better?

Thanks
Tom

 

[baldkev]

https://www.stormguard.co.uk/stormguard-products/trend-automatic-drop-down-seal/Ive fitted something like these before on leaking inward opening doors..... you have to be accurate or they dont work well! I think the metal bar set in the concrete gets my vote, with a rebate in the bottom of the door

 

[Ttrees]

It would be nice if I could find something like that locally, but it does appear to suit a door with a wider rail, and I'd be afraid of loosing a lot of meat.
certainly might be worth looking to see if I can find something with a lower profile tomorrow, as I might look at drainage channel there also.
Cheers
Tom

 

[joshvegas]

If its wind blown then the recessed metal bar sounds perfect and will look quire smart!

 

[Ttrees]

If its wind blown then the recessed metal bar sounds perfect and will look quire smart!

Would do, but only possible with the doors t'other way round.
Looking again yesterday, and note some rot on the outside of the frame.
Think I am best to try sorting something else out like along the lines of the last options and see how that goes,
as getting that frame out unscathed might be a challenge.

I would want that part done very quickly without being seen.
Got some polythene which could hang off the joists if need be,
but would like to try the easy way first, instead of shooting myself in the foot.
Waaaay too risky to be without a door in these here parts.

Cheers
Tom

 

[Ttrees]

So I had a look in town today, and bought some drainage channel,
three lengths being longer than needed.
This looks like the stuff, not 100% on exact widths if the same but likely.

Went to me folks and got the big grinder, some wavin pipe for under the tarmac and some rubber sheet @ 8 or 10mm thick to make a stormguard of sorts.

Might have a mess around with positioning,as the concrete likely needs a touch up anyway, I can likely somewhat play with how far into the door would be best.

Where would you guys think might be best, considering I might use the rubber, might not, and might make new weatherboards to accommodate ?

Pity I ain't got a hose long enough to do some tests,bucket o water will have to do.

Hopefully this may work, if even just to keep the door from rotting,
I can likely do other things to stop the peek of light and dam any water from further away.

No pipe clamps for me in Liddles this week

 

[Ttrees]

Seems like this will work, that rubber is long enough to span these doors with a joint in the centre.
Thinking I could make a rebate in new weatherboards to tuck this stuff into.
Will likely tuck that gutter upto the wall with a bit of bending in suitable locations.

Hopefully those weatherboards would be the only thing to rot.
Keen to see if you folks might have some other tips.

I won't be opening these doors, but will make both rubber strips removable if necessary.
Possibly could do with a metal strip inbetween the rubber and drainage
channel as I'll be cementing these in, and likely adding some DPC around the drains as there's some lying around.
Not 100% sure yet how I will cap the ends and if I can get away with say 3/4" of a cement wall/cap with DPC between that and walls.

 

[Ttrees]

Shed's still upside down, cant wait until things are back to normal.
Might ask some questions tomorrow regarding the yacht varnish the landlord bought for the doors.
I'll be making some profiled scraping tools which will be interesting,
Not having a contour gauge, it seems it might be easiest to be patient and make a cardboard or plastic template to do those coves/ogee/contours,
and trace that out on a bit of sawplate.

Needed to take out those spud? tubes for the bolts, as those doors weren't closing flush, which made fitting the poor mans stormguard threshold slightly troublesome,
since I mixed up some concrete for that job.

Not ever seen anyone washing stone before, and took me some time to figure out that this is the way to do it, and not endless mixing in the wheelbarrow.
The dirt clings to the sand and all sand needs removed.
This process produces about at least 50% wastage, so I needed to go to town again and buy more sand.

I had to recut the slot again after this, as it was too far out.
I didn't have a suitable metal strip to sink into the cement, so was kinda expecting something to go wrong.
Sorry no piccies of the finished job yet, the shed is very dusty ATM.
Fixed the stormguard threshold and awaiting cement to dry
I used rawlplugs of various types to shim it tall enough.
Nice day today to be lying on the ground sighting underneath the doors.
Happy as it looks pretty tidy now.

Good shot of the doors, which is the next job.
Reading some threads about yacht varnish, seems I will need to have everything SPOTLESS in order for the stuff to come out well, and that it will take at least a fortnight for it to become touch dry.

Shoulda got an elbow while I was getting a bit of scavenged wavin pipe
from me folks.
Would have been easier to fill the hole without having to remove the cardboard
plug which didn't last long whilst packing the concrete up the tunnel.

Seems to work well after a wee spill, will be interesting to see how it fairs with a thunderstorm, might give an update about that sometime.
Wee bit of tidying up to do yet, and eager to get onto the next part.

Cheers
Tom