Yes a sore subject, in my opinion an electrician should be an electrician who is fully qualified and not a cut down version known as a domestic installer.There's a hierarchy in electrical quals. If your guys have the City & Guilds level 3 that allows them to do initial and periodic testing of installations without someone else signing off for them, then that's a good start.
The electrical regs for employed parsons is the Electricity at Work RegulationsHi,
Any electricians on this board?
Does anyone know where I can get a 100% definitive answer to an electrical regs question? Two electricians and two appliance installers have verbally told me that a particular setup is against the regulations and non-compliant, but according to NICEIC, they are saying there is only an advisory against the situation under the BS7671 regs, not a mandatory prohibition against it.
The situation is that a hob and cooker are sharing the same isolation switch and terminal block.
Taking each point in turn.Thanks everyone for the multitude of advice here. Looks like I've opened a proverbial can of worms.
- The oven is a Zanussi ZOP37982XK, rated at 16A
- The old hob is an Indesit very similar to PIM 604 IX which I believe is rated at 32A
- The breaker on the single circuit is 32A
- The new hob, which the installers refused to fit is a IKB64301FB which is rated at 32A and Currys say "Requires hardwiring to a dedicated cooker circuit"
This alone is a red flag to my mind that 32 hob + 16 oven > breaker of 32.
- A previous electrician signed off the electrics (with the old hob) and said it was fine.
- The isolation switch is in the heat zone above the hob
- According to the regs quoted above the isolation switch is an immediate fail on regs, since it's not away from the heat
- NICEIC are defending the electrical sign off, basically saying that it is compliant.
- NICEIC are refusing to take action
- I think they are wrong
No accidents yet, but we can't get standard installers (John Lewis and Currys) to install goods. Plus we want to rent this property, and are concerned that the previous work to correct and sign off the installation is void.Presumably the previous installation (ie the previous hob that you are replacing) may have been installed some time ago such that it was under previous regulations. This may be relevant.
Rather than going by what Currys say, presumably you either have, or can get online, the installation instructions supplied by the manufacturer. If there is a connection restriction (ie a separate circuit must be provided for example) then it would say so there. The absence of that would suggest that the installer should follow regulations and practices that are safe and will comply with building regulations in force at the time of installation.
I would be interested to know what you are proposing to litigate. If someone has had an electric shock or the property has caught fire, then one would expect police and insurance to be involved. Almost anything else is likely to be too minor for litigation to be worth the cost and risk I would think. (Ex lawyer - my stock advice to friends and relatives was always "don't". )
That's the basic situation. They are refusing to put right previous work/signoffs. They did send around someone 'as a gesture of goodwill' to install a new oven (the original oven installers also refused to install it). The electrician that NICEIC sent around to check the install told me that was non-compliant, but NICEIC's written response to the situation is that it is compliant. Under their platinum promise, they should put the situation right, but they are not admitting any responsibility.Am I right in believing your disagreement is with NICEIC ?
I only ask as I was having a conversation last week with an electrician who was saying that NICEIC are just basically a money making outfit & will take no action against their registered installers as it will mean them losing money.
I can’t say how true this is but it was certainly his view based on new work that didn’t meet regs that he’d been asked to put right even though it had been installed by NICEIC registered installers, he had complained to them about it but they would take no action so he said.
It would be interesting to hear what other electricians think about NICEIC.
Thank you for your thoughts on this, but there's something VERY wrong with the picture you have painted:You are entering a minefield.
I strongly suggest that you heed what the ex-lawyer has said above, and if you are determined take your own legal counsel on this.
To get an expert witness you are looking at circa £1k per day to win this, that would be split if the expert is joint, else each party would be looking at their own, so £2k/day, probably 5 days, so between £5 & £10k for experts plus solicitors and barristers, plus expenses.
It is unlikely you will find an expert to take on the NICEIC close by.
Not many would have the experience and knowledge.
You might be on a hiding to nothing.
It might be better to lick your wounds and just pay to have it put right by someone who knows what they are doing.
Ironically Certsure is based in Dunstable.
It seems the OP is in Bedford so not that far away.
I have to be careful what I write, with regard to competencies & schemes.
Without seeing and inspecting the installation, I can't really comment further.
To comment on the EIC/EICR documents, I would need them in full to analyse them.
Building regulations in the UKmare the same throughout England. There are slight variations in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales as they have devolved govtsThanks.
Not quite true.…
Electricians are required to be registered with a certification scheme and every job they do gets submitted - and will end up on the local authority portal which can be viewed by the public.
I fully agree that it is wrong.Thank you for your thoughts on this, but there's something VERY wrong with the picture you have painted:
- Money was paid to correct faults for non-compliance and a compliance certificate was issued by the electrician under the aegis of NICEIC
- Four people have told me that the situation is non-compliant: two installers and two senior electricians
- Having an isolation switch in a heat zone is written in plain English as being non-compliant in the regulations
- You are telling me to pay more money to get another electrician who will repeat this nonsense
Ovens and hobs are installed in MILLIONS of homes in the UK. There should be little interpretation of the rules and regulations - an install should either be compliant or non-compliant.
NICEIC are saying something is compliant when it clearly is not, and I am expected to accept this because it would be too expensive to argue the case? If that was true, which I don't believe it is, what does that say about our society and our morals around acceptance of failure?
I think there are other ways to fight and win here, without spending a single £.
- The oven is a Zanussi ZOP37982XK, rated at 16A
You have answered your own question, if this was my job then I would approach it as if fitting two appliances and provide each with a supply capable of supplying the required current whilst ensuring volt drops are within limits and then use a suitable protective device for each appliance. Now from the manufacturers aspect, I was told by Neff that their ovens rated at 16 amps must be supplied from a 16 amp protective device, now in the UK we are taught that the protective device protects the downstream cable and not the load attached, ie the installation but how they do things in European countries I have no idea, they may have 16 amp FCU's who knows, but we don't. I believe that the internal wiring of these ovens is capable of handling a fault current that would disconnect a 16 amp type B MCB, but not a 32 amp device.The old hob is an Indesit very similar to PIM 604 IX which I believe is rated at 32A