Quality Mid Range Hand Planes ?

[Paul Chapman]

But one thing these cheapo firms never copy is customer service - which is why most of us will always stick with LV, LN and Clifton :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[frugal]

There has been a lot of talk of copy-catting designs and patent infringement. I am curious to see exactly which patents LN, Veritas and Clifton currently hold. After all the basic design of the planes is almost identical to planes made in the 1930's.


(snip)

Hi -

You are missing the point... it's about copying - not patent infringement.

If we were talking about music - your statment would be akin to saying that are are no new notes... so how would a different arrangement of old notes possibly be protected?

Rob,

I did not mean to imply that the only problem was patent infringement. I fully understand that the act of copying your designs so closely is also protected under other laws. I have no knowledge of if/how copyright affects copy-cats of physical products, I only have experience with written work and music which are exact copies, so I am staying well away from that area for fear of muddying the waters.

As a side effect the conversation brought up a couple of times comments about patents. As the humble plane has been around for a long time I was wondering what innovations the modern plane making companies have been able to come up with. However my google-fu is not strong enough to work the online patents websites to get a decent response (I either get 10,000 responses or none), so I wondered if anyone else knew. It was probably not the best idea to bring it up in this thread, and in hindsight I probably should have started a new thread for the question.

I apologise for any confision or misunderstanding.

 

[Rob Lee]

Hi Frugal -

Patent searching can be a bit tricky... and reading them is even worse, due to the construction of the claims... one has to be well versed in sorting through dependent and independent claims, and the entire nesting of salient bits...

I would recommend that you start by looking at a subset of patents - using a website like DATAMP :

http://www.datamp.org/

You can also use the USPTO at :

http://www.uspto.gov/main/profiles/acadres.htm

There's a section on how to search there...

It's not always easy to find the ones you want though - you have to develop a feel for how the database fields are used, and pay attention to the classes that the products may be in...

Cheers -

Rob

 

[ydb1md]

Rob said he'd never have the cheek to use injection moulding, but is there a good quality plastic/composite material that could be used to keep costs down?

If Rob Lee made a set of "utility" planes made out of the same stuff as his new dovetail saw, I'd buy em.

As long as the sole is wear resistant and the bed is well machined what else does a good hand plane need? Even though ductile iron planes won't break, I'm still afraid of dropping them. If I had a polymer plane I'd be more apt to use it on outside jobs.

 

[Martin Brown]

I could not post my comments here.

If you want me to tell you how I feel about copying then please stop by at a show, out of selling time. Bring a bed.

Martin

I know I may have a vested interest here, however I am also someone who thinks fairness is not a hair colour.

 

[Vann]

If there is something we should be selling then please PM me. No promises but we always look at everything.

Grant planes.... :shock:

ducks for cover and runs for the door... :roll:

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Martin Brown]

Made me laugh, mind you we won 3.0 tonight so it is quite easy.

 

[bugbear]

Rob said he'd never have the cheek to use injection moulding, but is there a good quality plastic/composite material that could be used to keep costs down?

If Rob Lee made a set of "utility" planes made out of the same stuff as his new dovetail saw, I'd buy em.

As long as the sole is wear resistant and the bed is well machined what else does a good hand plane need?

Decent blade?

BTW, something has occurred to me; aren't Tilgear run by some people with deep religious beliefs? If so, perhaps an appeal to their moral sense might influence their stocking decisions w.r.t. these design knock-offs.

BugBear

 

[lurker]

BB,

I had exactly the same thought & then decided I'd mixed them up with someone else.

 

[Pekka Huhta]

If someone really knows about the religious beliefs of Tilgear people, it might (just might) make a difference to write up a petition which would, sort of combine their beliefs and the fact that they are acting against their own values. Well heck, it should be enough that they are acting against our values for all that matters. Religion does not have to be mixed up with the whole thing at all.

How about opening a petition on any of the free net petition pages. I think that if we could get the message around the woodworking forums, we could get a few thousand names from the forums easily. I don't know wether it would be enough to make them stop, but it would make them think at least.

Two risks: First would be that we could actually be promoting the cheap LN and LV ripoffs (happens anyway) and second would be that those planes will be sold somewhere anyway.

Pekka

 

[ydb1md]

Rob said he'd never have the cheek to use injection moulding, but is there a good quality plastic/composite material that could be used to keep costs down?

If Rob Lee made a set of "utility" planes made out of the same stuff as his new dovetail saw, I'd buy em.

As long as the sole is wear resistant and the bed is well machined what else does a good hand plane need?

Decent blade?

BugBear

Sorry, didn't know Rob would sell anything else. :roll: :lol:

 

[Handworkfan]

As long as the sole is wear resistant and the bed is well machined what else does a good hand plane need?

Easy mouth adjustment. if it's there, I'll use it, but if I've got to go through a lot of fiddle and faffle I'm likely to try and soldier on with the wrong setting.
No matter how good value, I wouldn't now buy a plane wihtout an easy way of adjusting th emouth.

 

[tnimble]

If one constantly has to need to change the mouth opening on a bench plane, one is trying to use one plane for multiple distinctive tasks, one is in need for a second or third plane. That is the reason why historical plane makers generally only have a adjustable mouth on their block, shoulder and bull nose planes. As these speciality planes have to be used both on end grain and face grain and tweak joints by varying amounts. Bench planes have their dedicated task, leveling, jointing or smoothing.

 

[kygaloot]

It is clear that this company is violating intellectual property laws and thus their practices are clearly unethical. It is also true that it is very expensive to combat patent violations, particularly in an international setting.

However, as long as a company is not violating intellectual property laws, I see no moral argument against a company copying any given product. That is the purpose of patent and copyright law. It gives the original creator a monopoly for a number of given years. After that, they should be subject to the competitive market. Cheap knockoffs will not seriously damage the original quality supplier and another high quality knock-off is completely welcome. What is immoral is to suggest that employees in Canada, the UK, or the US are somehow more deserving of those manufacturing jobs than those in China or India.

 

[Vann]

What is immoral is to suggest that employees in Canada, the UK, or the US are somehow more deserving of those manufacturing jobs than those in China or India.

I don't believe there's anything wrong with fighting to keep jobs in our own country. Most of us have kids and would prefer that they are able to find jobs rather than be unemployed. When we start suggesting that employees in another country such as Canada might be more deserving than employees in China, then I guess your point applies.

It is clear that this company is violating intellectual property laws and thus their practices are clearly unethical.

I've never before considered owning an edge-trimming plane. However when I saw the introductory price for that Grant knock-off of the Veritas I seriously considered buying one and a Veritas blade to fit (then my LAJ arrived in the post and I'm too busy justifying it's cost to SWMBO to consider another purchase...... :roll: )
I do have a problem with the violation of Veritas's intellectual property rights, but I thought my dilemma might put another perspective on the issue, as in this case it would add to, not detract from, Veritas sales.

Cheers, Vann

 

[jorgoz]

Martin wrote :

If there is something we should be selling then please PM me. No promises but we always look at everything.

In Germany i found these interesting Anants, it's an improved version of their planes, 'fineley lapped sole, thicker blade, more steel in the plane...

Only 2 planes though, the nr. 4 and 5. It's the AA's, marked new on the following page.

http://www.dick-gmbh.de

Check under the tools/planes/anant categorie

 

[speed]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Pro-Irwin-Rec ... 240%3A1318

midrange maybe?

 

[wizer]

Generally not regarded so, speed

 

[Vann]

In Germany i found these interesting Anants, it's an improved version of their planes, 'fineley lapped sole, thicker blade, more steel in the plane...

Only 2 planes though, the nr. 4 and 5....

I visited Highland Hardware's website (USA) and I see they have an extensive range of improved Anant planes, including a multiplane, which are called Anant Kamal planes. The standard Anant No.4 sells for $US35 while the 'Kamal" sells for $US50. Similarly the No.5 sells for $US50 while the 'Kamal' sells for $US75. They have a 1/8" thick iron and a 3/16" cap iron, and claim to have a higher standard of machining.

It would be interesting to see some reviewed (until then I'll stay well clear).

Cheers, Vann

 

[Mikey R]

I think its a real shame that even budget manufacturers describe their cheap hand planes as "Quality" or "Pro" - its really misleading for us newbies