Push sticks again.......

[D_W]

I almost posted a juggs machine screen earlier, but I realize this is the US (here) and this board is the UK and the ubiquitous baseball practice devices may not exist there.

https://beaconathletics.com/store/clearance/wh-reduction/pitching-machine-screen/
just pass the wood through the hole and change the net to that kind of reinforced glass that they put in secure areas with wire mesh in it.

I mean, this is far less trouble than shortening a fence.

 

[Jonm]

That was indeed my intention to express.
I set the fence to the base of the gullet on the cutting end of the blade.

Thank you for confirming that.

Here is a picture of my saw as I would normally set it up. (Top guard removed for clarity, saw marks on fence are result of lending my saw)
Picture 1


I assume this is how I should set it up (below). Only problem is the short fence is now held in place with only one bolt, and I need to make sure “spare” bolt (can be seen in photo) does not work loose otherwise it will be like a bullet. Suggests to me that the designer did not intend the short fence to be in this position.
Picture 2


Here is a compromise position with bolt just catching short fence.
Picture 3

here is a picture of the other side of the fence
Picture 4

Any thoughts/comments by anyone?
Perhaps I should drill the long fence so the fence can be held in the position shown in Picture 2 but with two holding bolts?

 

[Inspector]

If you are not averse to adding a new hole or a pair then you could place the short fence where you want at the start of the blade and the bolts would always be buried. That or pull the bolt and reposition it to the extra hole as needed. Extra bolts could always be used on the rare occasion you need a tall fence for cutting tall narrow work. Cutting a raised panel for example with suitable shop made blade guarding clamped to the table.

Pete

 

[Jonm]

If you are not averse to adding a new hole or a pair then you could place the short fence where you want at the start of the blade and the bolts would always be buried. That or pull the bolt and reposition it to the extra hole as needed. Extra bolts could always be used on the rare occasion you need a tall fence for cutting tall narrow work. Cutting a raised panel for example with suitable shop made blade guarding clamped to the table.

Pete

Cheers Pete, I edited my post and it crossed with your reply. Your advice is much appreciated.

 

[Cabinetman]

Thank you for confirming that.

Here is a picture of my saw as I would normally set it up. (Top guard removed for clarity, saw marks on fence are result of lending my saw)
Picture 1
View attachment 126127

I assume this is how I should set it up (below). Only problem is the short fence is now held in place with only one bolt, and I need to make sure “spare” bolt (can be seen in photo) does not work loose otherwise it will be like a bullet. Suggests to me that the designer did not intend the short fence to be in this position.
Picture 2
View attachment 126128

Here is a compromise position with bolt just catching short fence.
Picture 3
View attachment 126132

here is a picture of the other side of the fence
Picture 4
View attachment 126133

Any thoughts/comments by anyone?
Perhaps I should drill the long fence so the fence can be held in the position shown in Picture 2 but with two holding bolts?

You could of course keep the fence where it was and then fasten a short wooden fence to it. Ian

 

[Doug71]

It's hard to tell on the photos exactly where the fence stops but in my opinion as long as it doesn't pass the centre of the blade it should be okay.

 

[TRITON]

Using a short fence - as in edge set to gullet.
Ripping - Bad idea. By the time you get mostly along, the timber is completely unsupported and can easily move away from the blade making your cut anything but straight.
Cross cutting - Yes
Ripping - No.

 

[JobandKnock]

Using a short fence - as in edge set to gullet.
Ripping - Bad idea. By the time you get mostly along, the timber is completely unsupported and can easily move away from the blade making your cut anything but straight.
Cross cutting - Yes
Ripping - No.

That is the absolute opposite of what I was taught at college, and of what we teach apprentices, along with the need to support long material on both infeed and outfeed sides of the saw. Read the comments above about ripping a 200mm piece of reaction timber straight down the middle with a long fence and you can easily see why long fences for most rips are a very, very poor idea. If you are only taking a sliver off the edge of a board, then yes, fine. In any case, don't you use a planer or hand plane to produce a flat edge?

 

[Daniel2]

Using a short fence - as in edge set to gullet.
Ripping - Bad idea. By the time you get mostly along, the timber is completely unsupported and can easily move away from the blade making your cut anything but straight.
Cross cutting - Yes
Ripping - No.

The short fence is particularly relevant when ripping, sorry.

 

[TRITON]

Incidentally. if the short fence was specifid for both rip and cc, why do they supply the saw with a friggin long fence

Read the comments above about ripping a 200mm piece of reaction timber straight down the middle

Reaction timber ?.
If by reaction timber you mean warped timber then that has no place on a saw bench. Get it flattened, get it straightened.
For a 200mm piece id use the bandsaw. 200 mm is really short to be pushing through a blade that measures 250. thats just nuts.

 

[Daniel2]

Ask two people on the internet for an opinion and you'll get at least three
conflicting answers ....

 

[Yojevol]

Using a short fence - as in edge set to gullet.
Ripping - Bad idea. By the time you get mostly along, the timber is completely unsupported and can easily move away from the blade making your cut anything but straight.
Cross cutting - Yes
Ripping - No.

I've certainly never experienced such a problem and I can't envisage how it could happen. Firstly we must assume the timber's reference side against the fence is reasonably straight (otherwise it wouldn't be used as the reference). Keeping the timber against the fence with a pushstick will ensure the cut also 'reasonably' straight.
If anything causes the sawn timber to move to the right it will pivot on the end of the fence, or the riving knife, and the back end will move away from the fence. BUT this is under your control with the pushstick. If the sawn end moves to the left the back end will probably jam up between the riving knife and the fence. A long fence wouldn't prevent this anyway.
I recently had a job involving the ripping of 20 3m lengths of 8 x 3 oak. Pushing and controlling it into the blade took considerable effort. However I had an assistant helping by pulling on the sawn end. Every job must be considered on its merits.
I only ever use the long fence on the saw for cutting sheet materials which I can be certain will be stable.
Brian

 

[Adam W.]

Incidentally. if the short fence was specifid for both rip and cc, why do they supply the saw with a friggin long fence



Reaction timber ?.
If by reaction timber you mean warped timber then that has no place on a saw bench. Get it flattened, get it straightened.
For a 200mm piece id use the bandsaw. 200 mm is really short to be pushing through a blade that measures 250. thats just nuts.

For what it's worth....

Reaction wood is stuff which either comes from a tree grown on a steep slope or branch wood. Stems with reaction wood are identified by having an off centre pith with wide spaced rings on one side and tightly spaced rings on the opposite side.

Sawn timber from it is usually poor quality and bowed, unless the timber is quarter sawn or riven from either the tension or the compression side of the stem.

Basically it's rubbish unless you want to build curved stuff.

 

[JobandKnock]

Incidentally. if the short fence was specifid for both rip and cc, why do they supply the saw with a friggin long fence

Something to do with sheet materials, methinks. If you look at traditional rip saws like the old Wadkins and Sedgwicks they all came with short fences. There must be a reason for that

That's a very old Wadkin rip saw - note the fence

Reaction timber ?.
If by reaction timber you mean warped timber then that has no place on a saw bench. Get it flattened, get it straightened.
For a 200mm piece id use the bandsaw. 200 mm is really short to be pushing through a blade that measures 250. thats just nuts.

200mm is the width. I know there's a major difference between using kilned softwood and using hardwoods. Out on site I've rarely experienced issues when ripping down nicely kilned C16s or C24s, providing they haven't been left out in the rain for weeks - in the workshop I've had a few hairy moments with kilned hardwood which was straight, not warped, when it went on the saw but which had loads of stresses left in it possibly from the kilning process. Most notable was some American black walnut we had on one job which insisted on clamping itself to the riving knife every cut, every plank (i.e. instead of parting it pinched inwards as is cut). A bit too pricy to just chuck out.

Perhaps reaction timber is the wrong term - timber with kilning stresses is possibly more accurate a description

 

[Droogs]

classic case hardening from badly kilned wood

 

[Jacob]

Something to do with sheet materials, methinks. If you look at traditional rip saws like the old Wadkins and Sedgwicks they all came with short fences. There must be a reason for that

View attachment 126162

That's a very old Wadkin rip saw - note the fence


200mm is the width. I know there's a major difference between using kilned softwood and using hardwoods. Out on site I've rarely experienced issues when ripping down nicely kilned C16s or C24s, providing they haven't been left out in the rain for weeks - in the workshop I've had a few hairy moments with kilned hardwood which was straight, not warped, when it went on the saw but which had loads of stresses left in it possibly from the kilning process. Most notable was some American black walnut we had on one job which insisted on clamping itself to the riving knife every cut, every plank (i.e. instead of parting it pinched inwards as is cut). A bit too pricy to just chuck out.

Perhaps reaction timber is the wrong term - timber with kilning stresses is possibly more accurate a description

Bigger saws means worse kickback. The rim speed may be the same as a small saw or even a spindle but the big one has a longer throw and more time to accelerate the projectile. You need long arms to throw a javelin!
OTOH a dig-in on a small but powerful spindle may just take a big bite out of the workpiece and hardly move it at all.
Which means, I guess, that a longer fence is less of a hazard with a smaller saw.

 

[JobandKnock]

Jacob, I've seen guys having kick backs on little 10in portable site saws cutting stuff like C16s down - the type of saw with long through fences, so I think there is still potential for trouble

Thinking about it, the smallest rip saw I can recall seeing (on a Royal Navy ship) was about a 14in blade. Also, didn't Wadkin get rid of their through fences after the 1974 WM Regs came in, and go to a fence with a sliding plate (old AGS to new AGS, Startrite also did something similar with their saws)?

 

[peter-harrison]

Also, didn't Wadkin get rid of their through fences after the 1974 WM Regs came in, and go to a fence with a sliding plate (old AGS to new AGS, Startrite also did something similar with their saws)?

They did- I have one. I am self-taught mainly and have ALWAYS used a long fence for almost everything. The only kickback I have ever had was while crosscutting something wide and not very long on someone else's table saw. Having said that, I'll probably get paid back for being complacent!
My position on all these matters is to respect the machine as much the 1000th time you use it as the first time.