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Nigel Burden

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Don't think that all liability will eventually fall on manufacturers when cars become driverless. The onus will be on the one sat in the driving seat to take action and over-ride the system if it fails.

Nigel.
 

Rorschach

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Don't think that all liability will eventually fall on manufacturers when cars become driverless. The onus will be on the one sat in the driving seat to take action and over-ride the system if it fails.

Nigel.

Only in the interim period. It's almost certain the driverless cars won't have any controls for the passengers to use.
 

Nigel Burden

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That isn't why we have a 30mph limit though, the number was just picked as being suitable, statistics about deaths came later and would have likely picked 20mph if injures and deaths were the prime factor.

I read a few years ago in one of my driving instructor magazines that there was some evidence that in 20 mph limits drivers can become less aware and pedestrians are less likely to look properly. There is also evidence that a child under the age of seven finds it difficult to notice a vehicles movement under 22 mph and adults under 7 mph. As I no longer have the article I can not give a link to it, but I am presuming that the speeds at which pedestrians notice movement are for someone who takes a cursory glance.

Nigel.
 

Nigel Burden

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Only in the interim period. It's almost certain the driverless cars won't have any controls for the passengers to use.

I hope that doesn't happen. As one who has enjoyed driving over the years, becoming a qualified observer for the Institute of Advanced Drivers, I think that it would be a retrograde step. I know all the safety systems act far quicker than a human, but there needs to be a last line of defence in the unlikely event of a system failure.

Nigel.
 

Rorschach

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I hope that doesn't happen. As one who has enjoyed driving over the years, becoming a qualified observer for the Institute of Advanced Drivers, I think that it would be a retrograde step. I know all the safety systems act far quicker than a human, but there needs to be a last line of defence in the unlikely event of a system failure.

Nigel.

I am sure there will be a last line of defence but it won't be controls, I suspect there will be a big emergency stop button as seen on trains etc. If there were to be a serious enough fault that you needed controls, the controls likely wouldn't work anyway.
 

Blackswanwood

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One of the interesting questions with driverless cars is the effect they may have on pedestrian behaviour. As they will not "speed" in a built up area and will stop if a pedestrian steps out will they be able to work effectively in cities as pedestrians stop using the green cross code?

They also overcome one of the challenges on some of the car share schemes. At the moment people may not want to have to go to a collection point. I could have an app that I book a vehicle of the required type that just turns up at the allotted time.
 

Rorschach

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One of the interesting questions with driverless cars is the effect they may have on pedestrian behaviour. As they will not "speed" in a built up area and will stop if a pedestrian steps out will they be able to work effectively in cities as pedestrians stop using the green cross code?

They also overcome one of the challenges on some of the car share schemes. At the moment people may not want to have to go to a collection point. I could have an app that I book a vehicle of the required type that just turns up at the allotted time.

Yes that will be interesting.

Your suggestion of booking a car on an app is one of the reasons I think it is madness to be investing in schemes like HS2, or even improving bus routes as has recently been on the news. All those billions of £'s should be invested into developing a nationwide system of driverless cars (taxis really) instead. You wouldn't have to build infrastructure like railways, it wouldn't need a schedule and it could access every corner of the country serving remote areas almost as well as it can serve cities. A simple booking system would let you order a vehicle to your address with prices dependent on demand etc. With a network of vehicles you could travel across the country by swapping vehicles at service stations when having a comfort break. An elderly person who cannot drive or is unfit to drive could be collected at their front door and driven to the other end of the country with little bother and if you were disabled or needed assistance you could book this at the same time so there was someone to help with bags at the interchange. Far better than the current public transport system.
 

Nigel Burden

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A lot of pedestrians don't use the green cross code, you only have to look at joggers. Run out, then look. This was something I particularly impressed on my pupils when I was working. Another thing that I've noticed is that pedestrians walk up to pedestrian lights and, without looking, press the button, then look. When the green man appears they cross without looking to see if the motorist was stopping.

Nigel.
 

paulrbarnard

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Don't think that all liability will eventually fall on manufacturers when cars become driverless. The onus will be on the one sat in the driving seat to take action and over-ride the system if it fails.

Nigel.
Not necessarily, especially for situations like L5 where there are no user controls or even simple tasks like valet parking where you are not sat in your car. I attended a video conference a couple of weeks ago on the proposed legislation from the U.K. legal working group and initial proposals are for full autonomy liability to be taken by a third party service provider. Think of it like a taxi company or fleet service provider. I don’t agree with that myself but It’s a complex area and a lot of thinking is already underway. As some may have realised this is an area my company works in and we have representation on a number of the Global standardisation bodies.
 

Nigel Burden

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Not necessarily, especially for situations like L5 where there are no user controls or even simple tasks like valet parking where you are not sat in your car. I attended a video conference a couple of weeks ago on the proposed legislation from the U.K. legal working group and initial proposals are for full autonomy liability to be taken by a third party service provider. Think of it like a taxi company or fleet service provider. I don’t agree with that myself but It’s a complex area and a lot of thinking is already underway. As some may have realised this is an area my company works in and we have representation on a number of the Global standardisation bodies.

I can see this opening up a large can of worms, almost as large as a sharpening thread on this forum. :LOL:

Nigel.
 

alanpo68

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Yes that will be interesting.

Your suggestion of booking a car on an app is one of the reasons I think it is madness to be investing in schemes like HS2, or even improving bus routes as has recently been on the news. All those billions of £'s should be invested into developing a nationwide system of driverless cars (taxis really) instead. You wouldn't have to build infrastructure like railways, it wouldn't need a schedule and it could access every corner of the country serving remote areas almost as well as it can serve cities. A simple booking system would let you order a vehicle to your address with prices dependent on demand etc. With a network of vehicles you could travel across the country by swapping vehicles at service stations when having a comfort break. An elderly person who cannot drive or is unfit to drive could be collected at their front door and driven to the other end of the country with little bother and if you were disabled or needed assistance you could book this at the same time so there was someone to help with bags at the interchange. Far better than the current public transport system.

It does nothing to address the problem of congestion. Trains and something like the tube take people away from the road network. Even look at how much space per passenger a double-decker bus takes up compared to a car with one person in it.
 

Woody2Shoes

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It does nothing to address the problem of congestion. Trains and something like the tube take people away from the road network. Even look at how much space per passenger a double-decker bus takes up compared to a car with one person in it.
Yes, but once you factor in that you have networked computers in charge, much less space is required, as algorithms are much better than random people at optimising space and motion. Effectively every road becomes like a train.
 

Rorschach

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It does nothing to address the problem of congestion. Trains and something like the tube take people away from the road network. Even look at how much space per passenger a double-decker bus takes up compared to a car with one person in it.

Woody said pretty much what I was going to say. Congestion would be much less of an issue than it is now and of course congestion is only a problem now in cities, the vast majority of the country is congestion free.

In cities such as London for example than your traditional mass transit will still make sense and the replacement of lots of private vehicles with driverless cars using networked route finding would make things much better than they are currently.
Where my idea really excels is outside of the city centres, the places where mass transit is not needed and where even small scale public transport such as minibus services are still not really a viable option. In these places, say rural Cornwall for example, a small fleet of driverless vehicles could give residents much greater independence and freedom than they currently have and at a very low cost both financially and environmentally.
 

alanpo68

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Woody said pretty much what I was going to say. Congestion would be much less of an issue than it is now and of course congestion is only a problem now in cities, the vast majority of the country is congestion free.

In cities such as London for example than your traditional mass transit will still make sense and the replacement of lots of private vehicles with driverless cars using networked route finding would make things much better than they are currently.
Where my idea really excels is outside of the city centres, the places where mass transit is not needed and where even small scale public transport such as minibus services are still not really a viable option. In these places, say rural Cornwall for example, a small fleet of driverless vehicles could give residents much greater independence and freedom than they currently have and at a very low cost both financially and environmentally.

Except you haven't really addressed the main issue which is that people want to make journeys at the same time. In rural Cornwall you have parents who need to do the school run and then get to work.

In London, you have the rush hour which means you need to get huge numbers of people into one area and then away from the same area 8 hours later.
 

Blackswanwood

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Except you haven't really addressed the main issue which is that people want to make journeys at the same time. In rural Cornwall you have parents who need to do the school run and then get to work.

In London, you have the rush hour which means you need to get huge numbers of people into one area and then away from the same area 8 hours later.

My sense is that a good shared public transport service is always going to be required but I also wonder if the investment decisions being made today are taking account of what the world needs in the future.

The London rush hour will undoubtedly return but probably not to the extent we have seen it previously .., and over the next twenty years as office space is repurposed may reduce further.

None of us know for certain but interesting to think about!
 

Rorschach

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Except you haven't really addressed the main issue which is that people want to make journeys at the same time. In rural Cornwall you have parents who need to do the school run and then get to work.

In London, you have the rush hour which means you need to get huge numbers of people into one area and then away from the same area 8 hours later.

Read my post again.
 

Steve_Scott

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Yes, but once you factor in that you have networked computers in charge, much less space is required, as algorithms are much better than random people at optimising space and motion. Effectively every road becomes like a train.
This is where driverless personal transit is likely heading. Every vehicle knowing what is around it and meshing perfectly with its surroundings. But the moment you network the ‘cars’, the network is open to be hacked.... big stumbling block
 

MikeJhn

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A lot of high end cars do have an adjustable limit, which will sound a 'beep', this is over and above, the cruise control.
The limiter on my car indicates by a green light on the perimeter of the speedometer and limits the effectiveness of the throttle pedal above that speed, until you get used to it, its a very weird effect that your car is not responding to the throttle, it will respond if you push very hard, but at the chosen speed its very easy to keep within it, the dashboard also chimes if you go above the set limit the green light turns read, and flash's a "chosen sped exceeded" warning on the dashboard, I wonder how long it will be before this limit is set by an external source?
 
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