Pricing a kitchen, how to get the work AND make a profit?

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John, very interesting thread and I have to agree with you that keeping prices as low as possible is sensible. With regard to trying to ascertain the customer's budget, this can be tricky. I find in my business (importing and sourcing new cars) that asking "how much do you want to spend?" can elicit two types of responses 1) customer will automatically go into defensive mode and think that whatever price they mention I'll quote £10 shy of that figure, so will reply "no sure" etc. 2) be perfectly truthful and tell exactly the budget they have to spend.
When I hear response 1, I can generally tell within a few minutes if I'm been messed around or the customer is just tyre kicking. Sure, sometimes I'm wrong but I think you'll agree that you do tend to get a knack for these things. With response 2 it's puts me and the customer at ease when we know where the goalposts are and have a good honest and decent conversation and hopefully conclude a deal in due course.
Of course we all get the "I can get it for a grand less" type of customer. Knowing slightly more about the motor trade than they do and knowing that they are either lying or have been offered something inferior, after a quick chat I'm quite happy telling them that they should take the other deal. Sometimes they come back, sometimes they don't.
Anyway, as I say, good thread.
Did you manage to get any more clamps, BTW?

Noel
 
John,

There is a very good explanation of decision trees here http://www.mindtools.com/dectree.html You can get software to do the calculations but for a few nodes, they are easily done by hand - enough to give you the flavour of it at least.

Of course there is a strong possibility of GIGO but even so, the insights you can get into the really sensitive parameters can be very educational.
 
John I have just found this thread and found it very interesting.

Where I live there is just not a big enough catchment to specialise in one thing unfortunately, on the other hand I don't have the overheads you do.

I have been writing for The Woodworker for the last 18months and now make a big thing of that in my leaflets and advertising. It certainly helps a lot. I was just wondering if you could get yourself featured in the local ****shire Life magazine. I would have thought they would be interested in the partnership you have with your wife and the fact that your kitchens are completely bespoke; it would make an interesting article.

Then you can do the "as featured in" approach, people will pay more money and I would imagine you are more likely to get commissions.

Keith
 
John,

What typr and grade of Birch ply do you use? Could it be left unpainted but varnished or lacquered ie are there lots of knots? I'm keen to get away from using so much MDF and I'd like to find an alternative - esp if its for a non painted finish.

Cheers

Tim
 
Keith-
I am going to have a kitchen featured in the local paper that I advertise in at the moment. I have thought of advertising further afield but am wary of being contacted by people more than say 20 miles away due to the number of journeys which are necessary before actually getting the sale.

Tim-
I use BB grade birch ply,t he only type Edens are able to supply. Some shhets are virtually clear but most have a number of repaired knots. The main advantage of painting is being able to tie together the differnet materials ie mdf and ply. By the time it's painted it all looks the same. It also takes care of the edges. If I didn't use paint I would have to start edge binding

John
 
John, how much deposit do you ask for when your client orders one of your kitchens?

I have it written in to my terms and conditions that i require 45% up front, with the remainder due upon delivery. Even before i set up on my own and i was working as a cabinet maker for someone else i used to ask my private customers for this amount.
Why then after not receiving a penny am i now having to take a 65 year old woman to court for a £11,000 library i built for her? Stupidity thats why!
"This is a retired window" who after living as a ex-pat in Spain for the last 30 years came home after her husband died. I can trust her can't i? The simple answer was "No I Couldn't"

When i asked for the deposit i was given the sob story that she had to wait for her bank account to be transferred back to the UK. So i got on with the job, after all i would be working in the house so it isn't as if she was going to run off. Even when i finished the work i had no doubts about getting paid, she kept on telling me that the Spanish bank were holding the transfer up, and so as far i as was concered they were to blame.

I have since found out that far from coming back to England she is in fact moving to Spain permanently, and selling the house here, so i presume that the library and the other work she had done by different trades people was done to make the house more desirable.
Anyway my solicitor is going to put a charge (i think he called it that) on her house, which means that went she sells it i will receive the money she owes me, but even then i will be second in line behind the bank. apparently in any claim like this the bank or finance company is always first in line.
My solicitor said that this is not the first time she has done this sort of thing. She buys a house gets people in to give it the works, which puts the value up, and then sells it. He said that if i had waited another few weeks before contacting him she would have sold the house and once in Spain there is nothing i could have done about it, short of spending a lot more then she owed me chasing her through the Spanish courts.

Do you know what really gets me? Two things! First of all, this sort of person does not give a dung. If i had not been lucky enough to have a couple of commissions after the one i did for her i would have went down the tubes and been bankrupt. As it is things will be tight for a while. But i bet that this never entered her head .

Secondly how could i have been so stupid to be taken in by this person? I thought that i had my head screwed on. It is so very embarrassing and if i didn't think that it was worth warning you guys to be careful and not to get taken for a mug, i would not have admitted it to anyone.

Sorry to spoil this very interesting topic.

Regards

Woody
 
Woody,

That is a rotten piece of luck! I think it easy to see how you "fell" for it. Even crooks get older and wiser I guess, so that she has had a good while to perfect her technique.

Good luck with getting your money back.
 
Woodythepecker":1zw1g1gf said:
John, how much deposit do you ask for when your client orders one of your kitchens?

I have it written in to my terms and conditions that i require 45% up front, with the remainder due upon delivery.

Woody, what a ghastly story. People such as the one you have been ****ed over by have part of their brains missing. It's a sort of sociopathy. As far as I'm concerned, they need to be removed from society altogether, ideally off planet if you know what I mean. Perhaps something bad will happen to her.

Anyway, to answer your question, my standard terms are that I get 45% at the start of the job, then, when all the stuff is ready to install, the customer comes to my workshop, inspects it and pays another 45%. The final 10% when everything is installed to their satisfaction.

I used to offer credit card facilities. Works with a text message, cost £6 a month and 2.2% commission. Trouble is, if the customer says they haven't had the goods then the credit card company just takes the money back out of your account and leaves you to sort it out with the customer. I decided it was just too risky, and no longer offer credit card doings.

To continue the thread, I've got three quotes out at the moment, and three sales calls booked for the coming week. I've got enough work for the next four of five weeks anyway, but I know from experience how quickly that can change.

I've been thinking a lot about marketing, aided by the advice and opinions that I've read here. My main wondering at the moment is whether I ought to have a showroom. It means paying more rent, and having enough spare time to make the kitchen/s to put in it. I don't actually need one, but it may help to attract customers with more money to spend, rather than most of my current customers who are looking to pay 'local artisan' prices.

John
 
I only ask for 25% - am I being an silly person? I normally get them to agree to stage payments ie if its a full kitchen and it takes 3 months or so then I ask for 25% up front, 20% after another month, 20% the month after and the balance on completion.

I find that this easier for customers to accept esp on a big job and that 25% covers materials and some labour.

I didn't realise itwas common practice to ask for so much up front. Maybe I should do that.

T
 
Chris thank you.

John i couldn't agree with you more. The sad thing is if she ever got taken to court the judge would probably see her as i did a harmless old woman and let her off with a smack on the wrist.

I think that your idea of asking for a further 45% just before the commission is fitted/delivered and the other 10% when you finish is perfect. Although it would not have helped with the above it would certainly help ease my mind in the future. Because as you know, depending on the job, we can lay a lot of money out upfront and all it takes is for one or two people to default, for money problems to occur. The companies i deal with have 30 day accounts but i bet if you kept them waiting for much longer then 30 days they would not be to happy and the credit would soon stop.

For the very reasons you state i would not take credit cards.

As for promoting/advertising my work. I have been pretty lucky, because as i have said, before i started my own company i used to work for someone else and i got a lot of private work while i was there. This gave me a nice client base to start with and inturn through word of mouth i have got more work.
I have also got a good few clients from a table i made for my solicitors office. Which led me to design and build one at a reduced rate for my dentist, and he promotes my work for me. You would be surprised at how much business just these 2 pieces have brought in.

A showroom could be a very good idea because as you say it might attract clients with a bit more money. As for finding time to make the kitchen/s to put in it, couldn't you build a extra cabinet here and there while you are making a clients order. Instead of 10 cabinets for Mrs Bloggs you could do 11 and Mrs Smiths order of 14 could become 15 or 16. This way you are splitting the time you have got to find between a few customers order.

Let us know how the idea of your showroom goes.

Regards

Woody

Edit, sorry tim our replys crossed. Yes 25% is no where near enough. As you can see from my problem thee are people out there that will rip you off.
 
Woody, that stinks. My commiserations. "Little old widder women" are a running joke amongst old tool buyers as a soft touch, but on this evidence I hope I never come across one. :shock: Hope it turns out okay.

Cheers, Alf
 
tim":szpd1x6a said:
I only ask for 25% - am I being an silly person? I normally get them to agree to stage payments ie if its a full kitchen and it takes 3 months or so then I ask for 25% up front, 20% after another month, 20% the month after and the balance on completion.

I find that this easier for customers to accept esp on a big job and that 25% covers materials and some labour.

I didn't realise itwas common practice to ask for so much up front. Maybe I should do that.

T

Do you know how much MFI ask for up front? The whole lot, every single penny. Same with all the other national kitchen firms that I know of. People are used to that.

The reason I ask 45-45-10 is the '10'. That's how much I am prepared to risk. The 45-45 is just what's left over when the 10 is subtracted.

John
 
Alf thanks very much. It says something about the world when you cannot trust a woman of her age.

Anyway once bitten twice shy. As long as i learn by my mistake (and get my money) thats all that matters.

Regards

Woody
 
Woody,

Commiserations mate - like you say, learning from it is the main thing you can hope to get out of it. Sounds like she was a smooth operator - well honed, and also I reckon its quite an unusual scam method - I've never heard of anything similar before. It's not so easy to notice a scam when the situation is so plausable.

Hope you get you £££ in the end.

Adam
 
John

This has been (is) such an interesting thread, thank you for starting it and taking the time to put so much into it. So far I have ‘taken’ quite a lot of the information and now I hope in some way to redress the balance by putting something back in.

As you may know I worked for a decade or so in marketing and as a result have a very strong understanding of brand development, consumer and retail marketing. I saw your question about the merits of a showroom and thought I would put down some thoughts as to the pros and cons from a business management perspective. I hope that it isn’t too dogmatic or full of dreadful management speak.

Please note that the use of You or I is simply for clarity – I can’t bear ‘one’ so these comments are not about you or me or our businesses (unless specifically stated)

Broadly, there are two types of showroom, which could be described as ‘The Enticer’ and ‘The Confidence instiller’. Briefly, The Enticer is the shop front where potential customers get drawn in to have a look at your products whereas ‘The confidence instiller’ is more about reassuring customers who are already interested in buying your products that they are up to the standard they are after and that you are also unlikely to disappear overnight. It goes without saying that the Enticer has to also incorporate the confidence instiller.

The big question is in effect twofold – Do I need a showroom? and if so, which showroom do I need?

I’ll only deal with the first question in this section because otherwise it will go on for ever (and may anyway)!

Do I need a showroom?

This is the pivotal question which spawns a whole load more. The good thing is that these questions can all be answered by objective, economically based answers although there may be some emotional reasons which overrule the more rational ones – such as ‘because I want one’. However, by addressing the rational ones first you can quickly assess how much the emotion is costing you and choose to go with your gut or not.

To answer this question fully, it is necessary to establish the overarching objective of what the showroom will ultimately achieve.

If for example, the hypothesis is that it will be used to gain better paying, more affluent customers then you need to be sure that these potential customers use showrooms as their key (or one of the key) methods of deciding what to buy. If they do then you have to be able to or be prepared to compete with the other showrooms out there.

This necessarily means diversifying your business and becoming a retailer as well because these customers will expect you to be pretty hot at that too - if you don't look as impressive as the other showrooms then the implication will be that your furniture or work won't be as good either. That also means being in the right position to secure maximum footfall, have the right type of stock in the showroom and have the right person manning the place who you trust to present your business to these customers in at least as good a way as you would (unless of course you are intending to manage the showroom as well as make the furniture!).

All of that adds up to a fair amount of cash (not forgetting that you will still need to promote the showroom and your business as well anyway).

Doing a quick bit of back of fag packet maths, let’s say that to lease a high street showroom costs a conservative £50k a year. Add onto that all the other costs – manager’s salary, insurance, utilities, changing stock, promoting the showroom, first year shopfitting costs etc and I don’t think it would be too difficult to get to a figure approaching £100k.

That’s a lot of kitchens just to cover the costs. On top of that I imagine that one of your business USPs (and I am talking about you, John and me and probably most other single or two team furniture makers) is the personal touch ie hand made for them by you.

Therefore the next question is can you make enough of these kitchens in a year to cover those overheads without farming out stuff to other makers, which aside from removing the truth behind your USP also reduces the profitability of each job (although granted it may still improve your overall financial position). It also means another diversification of your business which you may or may not wish to do.

Plus, if someone comes into a showroom to buy one of your kitchens (or have it revamped), how quickly could you do that for them? Most people who go into a shop expect to be able to purchase relatively quickly ie in the mood to buy. If your leadtime is 6 months (which is potentially feasible given how many kitchens you'll need to be making if the showroom is to be successful) then you need to gauge how many of these potential customers will be prepared to put down their 45% deposit that far in advance.

Another key question to answer is why would the customers you want, come to you rather than go to others who offer similar products?

I’ll come clean now to the rest of the forum, I was the guy who PMed John in the first place to get some advice which started this thread. I had been approached by someone to quote on a new kitchen for them and I knew it would be high end, however didn’t know enough about the quoting side of the kitchen business so asked John.

Anyway, one of the reasons that she wanted me to quote on this (and you could replace ‘me’ with ‘an individual maker’) was that she didn’t want something that looked like it had come straight out of a showroom and nor did she want to have to deal with someone who wasn’t actually going to make it themselves. So in this instance, actually having a showroom may well have removed me from the quoting opportunity. (I don’t know what the outcome of our meeting is yet – I’ll let you know).

My rambling point is that if the high end customers want to feel like they belong to a private members club and have special things made for them (and them only in their minds) then they don’t necessarily want to see their kitchen on the high street.

So to round this off (I didn’t realise I was going to bang on so long – sorry), to open a showroom is a colossal, long term risk that needs significant investment. You could do a lot of advertising for the same level of investment or even put in a couple of kitchens in that social circle for reduced rates to act as showrooms in themselves. You also don’t need to do a lot wrong with your showroom to sink the business and if you decide it doesn’t work for you and you’d be better off not having one again, the very act of closing the shop (not the business) can send very negative signals to the public.

I am of course happy to have these comments shot down or debated since they are only a view and are not necessarily ‘right’. I also hope it doesn’t come across as patronising which of course its not meant to, its just that a lot of good marketing is in effect common sense and therefore often obvious, which then sounds patronising. :oops:

Cheers

Tim
 
Tim, (and John)

When you look at the costs you mention, perhaps you could go to a half way house of some of the following

A) Commisioning a really good website - and I mean really good one - with significant amounts of info and updated with client feedback etc. Lots of photos, and something that "oozes" profesionalism.

B) Have a professional portfolio created - perhaps even having a local professional photographer catalog previous work, including obtaining feedback from clients. Then having this printed on high quality gloss paper.

C) Having a good quality glossy brochure made up - with photographs of manufacturing, previious jobs etc. Something you can leave with the client. Maybe a section explaining how you had to overcome some unusual layouts, or particular custom features - with an emphasis on how only a custom suppluer could achieve this.

This would be cheaper, although such things are not cheap, and would require a reasonable financial committment - to meet the expectations of a "high-end" purchaser.

On an aside Tim, I can well understand a customer wanting a kitchen that didn't look "standard" - a friend of mine wanted exactly that, and in the end, ordered some beech planks, and handmade the lot. He's chuffed to bits with how it turned out - precisely because it "fits" into his old cottage.

Adam
 
Adam,

Totally agree. There are loads of ways that you could market the business - I was just replying in particular to John's musing about showrooms (and obviously Woody's interest as well).

I also agree with you about 'cheapness'. Basically if any form of marketing is cheap - it usually looks it. The thing to consider when setting up a marketing budget is cost effectiveness - literally Return on Investment. The other thing to do remember with any marketing plan is consistency both in terms of the message used and in the way its communicated. ie don't talk about 'exclusive and premium' in one message and then in the next talk about pricing and discounts.

What I mean about the way its communicated (and in part refers to my previous point about the quality of the showroom you are able to fund) is the format and its production value.

A good example I imagine most people have seen at some time is a TV ad by some local business that somehow has managed to get a slot in one of the ad breaks during a Champions League match or a film premiere. Generally these ads while not cheap cannot stand next to the other ads in the break eg Nike, Guinness, Sony without looking homemade. So although the ad probably cost £10 or 20k to make and the airtime cost another£10 or £20k, the only message that is successfully communicated is 'this is us, we are here and we're a bit rubbish!' Or you get a flyer from some new smart restaurant opening in town that looks great but its printed on what looks like loo roll. First impression? 'we look good but our attention to detail and use of quality ingredients is a bit suspect!'

Just for the record - I do work!! Its jusut that I have a pile of admin to do and I need to wait in for some deliveries plus the finish on the table I'm making is drying at the mo so I'm at a loose end!

Cheers

Tim
 
I think there may be a halfway house - or other fractions of a full-blown showroom. I have been to quite a few makers who have finished stuff in a separate part of their main workshop premises and this seems to me much better than a high street shop for the sort of "custom-feel" you folk are talking about. Certainly it won't get passing trade but anyone who knows of you would be able to visit and depending how messily you work, any work in progress can also act as a demonstration of your approach and standards.

A really good website is probably useful too, as Adam says but I reckon it can be quite expensive and even with professional help can consume quite a lot of your own time. There are many pitfalls too for the unwary (like losing your site, or domain, server crashes, poor backups etc. etc. and many folk have been burned by unprofessional website designers in these areas.
 
I think there may be a halfway house - or other fractions of a full-blown showroom. I have been to quite a few makers who have finished stuff in a separate part of their main workshop premises and this seems to me much better than a high street shop for the sort of "custom-feel" you folk are talking about. Certainly it won't get passing trade but anyone who knows of you would be able to visit and depending how messily you work, any work in progress can also act as a demonstration of your approach and standards.

I agree with you in part Chris, and in fact the 'confidence instiller' which I mentioned at the beginning is probably exactly the same as you describe. There are a few reasons why I don't agree with you fully (and these are also to do more with the way I'd prefer to work rather than I am saying that you are wrong!) .

Firstly, space. If I had enough space in my workshop then I'd be using it for working in/ finish room etc etc. rather than filling it with speculative pieces.

Secondly, control. This covers a bunch of things actually:

Control of working efficiency: I don't know how much time I'd want to take out of my working time to discuss the minutiae of furniture with 'drop in' customers esp if I was in the middle of a glue up or hitting a deadline. Therefore, I think I'd have to make it 'by appointment' which in a way is what I do anyway - except that often I take pieces to people to show rather than see them at the workshop.

Control of perception of the business: My workshop isn't very big or that impressive but it doesn't mean I can't turn out work that is both big or impressive. Yet if a customer came to see me at my workshop without having met me or discussed the kind of work I do (or that they wanted) then I wouldn't want them leaping to the wrong conclusions.

Control of perception of my abilities: This probably doesn't apply just to me (I hope :shock: ). If a prospective customer turned up at my workshop when I was nearing the end of a big commission, particularly one that required installation on site somewhere , the only impression they could gain is one of semi organised chaos (at best). For example that MDF cabinet (white one) that I posted some pics of a couple of weeks ago - well for the week before that was installed, there were 9 or so boxes stacked up in two piles, shelves and doors lying on every available surface for painting (and or drying) and nothing looked that brilliant. Yet the end result looked great, the customer was really happy and has also recommended me to a few of his friends. I know that we all as woodworkers can perceive what most WIP is going to look like but in my experience most punters are not able to judge either approach or standards based on what they see. Let me qualify that - obviously, if you have a leaky workshop with rusty tools then its obvious to most that the quality of your products is possibly not what they are after, but most customers wouldn't be able to spot if your work was really good from what they see in your workshop unless they have something to compare it to. So from a commercial perspective, there is potentially more to lose than gain in this scenario.

The third and final thing is cost. My workshop is at home - it does not need to attract business rates as such, I also don't need public liability cover or parking spaces etc etc all of which I would if it was 'open to the public'.

As I said, not everyone finds those conditions a barrier but at the moment I am lucky in that I have about as much as I can handle and this all comes from word of mouth - which normally means that somebody else has been telling then how much they like my stuff (much more powerful than me spouting a pile) and they will probably have seen my finished stuff wherever they heard about me.

I am putting a website together at the mo which I agree with you is a necessity these days (and is expected which is possibly more important) but I'm careful as to what I want it to do. Basically, it will be for me to direct people to images of my work and what I'm about rather than some 24/7 retail site which to be honest wouldn't be that appropriate anyway plus as you say, could take up a huge amount of time.

The really good thing? My delivery has just arrived! If only I had a showroom where they could have left it :lol: :lol: :lol:

T
 
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