Planer Thicknesser Woes - Repair or Replace

[kmp]

Although I'm very new to woodworking I have been playing with machine tools for many years. Armed with this confidence (misplaced) I bought myself a secondhand (very) Kity 635 PT and began the cleanup, reassembly and set up. I have been running it for a couple of days now on softwoods and have come to the conclusion that I either need to spend money on spares or consider a better replacement.

At the moment it produces just about every problem I have read about, snipe, grooves, feed rollers slipping/marking the wood and a thickness setting which goes from not cutting at all to jamming and stalling the motor with the smallest adjustment to the thicknesser table. The machine is obviously old and has seen some action and abuse, I have already made and fitted new thicknesser feed pully bearings which at least allowed the feed rollers to rotate, new belts and blades but I am increasingly sensing that some major work (and expense?) will be required to get it working properly again.

I have read everything I can find re new machines and even come to terms with having to spend a lot of money for what appears to be a simple machine tool but need some advice on what route to take. My interests at the moment are basic bookshelves, tables etc in Oak but I would like to progress to some more challenging pieces eventually. The choice for me seems between the Record PT260 (and its clones) or the Axminster AW106PT2, again with its' many similar cousins.

So, any advice you might have on the repair or replace decision would be much appreciated. I am leaning to the replace option if for nothing more than I am keen to get on with the woodworking and leave the machine repair behind. On that front are the cast iron 10 x 7 planers worth the extra £200 over the PT260 type and would I as a hobbiest notice the quality differences between the Fox, Charnwood and Axminster versions of the more expensive type.

Hope you can help

Keith

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I had the record power pt 260 four several years before upgrading to a startrite. Apart from the faff of changeover from planing to thicknessing, I found its quality to be surprisingly good. It cut very true with careful adjustment and it had plenty of grunt for hardwoods. The finish quality given its only a two cutter block was really good. Changing to thicknessing though......I got it down to 1.5 minutes but that was like a formula one pit crew! It is a drag on that score. The more costly ones just have the outfeed hinge up and flip over the waste chute, ten seconds if that

 

[marcros]

I was thinking about this earlier, but there doesn't seem to be a good discussion of which machines are quick to change over. There are some that one table lifts, some that split and the index and outfeed lift separately. Some you have to remove the fence, some you don't.

I quite fancy a machine that I can refurb and swap the cutter head for a helical one and end up with the ideal machine. Searching for the base machine is difficult though. With this cutter head, or rather the expense of it, it only makes sense to do it with a combine p/t.

 

[blackrodd]

I hate to be beaten, so I would have to fix the thing!
I have just googled " Kity635" and got a vast page of stuff, have you checked this page out?
Fist thing is to check is all the bearings, cutter block, feed rollers etc, followed by the thichnesser bed rise and fall drive chain, if slack, this can cause a few problems at every corner
Setting up the thicknesser, Carefully level the over hand beds, front to back side to side,corner to corner.
Check the thicknesser bed, all ways and watch for a low corner, or end.(chain drive cogs out of sync). THEN,.
Instead of trying to measure, I have used a piece of planed/thicknessed stock, just under the same width as the thicknesser bed, By winding the bed up slowly, you should be able to see what sequence of anti kicks, feed roller and pressure bar and, if any thing is out you should be able to adjust it.
DO NOT adjust any thing until everything has been checked and noted first before adjusting
Sounds as if someone has been "fiddling", instead of "fettling".
My experiance has been All good on Kity stuff, allowing for the small capacities and I would personally rather have a Kity 635 than most other "new" stuff today. HTH Regards Rodders

 

[nathandavies]

In my humble opinion either sort out the machine you have, not totally sure but I would have thought that your kity would be better than one of those two machines you mention. my preferred option however would be to buy a second hand Sedgwick p/t from the bay, for similar money to your choices.

Nathan

 

[RogerS]

I was thinking about this earlier, but there doesn't seem to be a good discussion of which machines are quick to change over. There are some that one table lifts, some that split and the index and outfeed lift separately. Some you have to remove the fence, some you don't.

I quite fancy a machine that I can refurb and swap the cutter head for a helical one and end up with the ideal machine. Searching for the base machine is difficult though. With this cutter head, or rather the expense of it, it only makes sense to do it with a combine p/t.

Personally I like the one where the infeed and outfeed tables stay fixed and all you have to do to changeover is wind the thicknessing table down enough to slot in the dust chute when planing. I always have this gagging feeling that the tables won't come back down in the same place and at the proper height...illogical, perhaps!

Another pet foible of mine is having a fence that is rock solid. When i replaced my small standalone Axminster planer a couple of years back I went down to tewkesbury Saw Co and played around with (IIRC) a Record, a Rojek, a Scheppach and a Sedgwick. The Sedgwick with its cast-iron fence was the on,y one that I couldn't budge. Other fences seemed very flimsy or just supported at one end resulting in the ability to flex the fence. The Sedgwick also keeps the infeed and outfeed tables untouched when changing mode and so I waited for a decent secondhand 240v one to come up on eBay.

I also use the Barke Turnnblades.

Sorry, OP, for being taken a little off-topic.

 

[kmp]

Many thanks to all for your thoughts and advice on my dilemma, all were helpful and focused my mind on the issue rather than running off to spend money on a quick fix.

In no particular order:

Bob, grateful for your experiences with the PT260 and I will put it back on the list of possibles if I eventually decide to go the new replacement route. I am struck by the similarity between those and my current Kity and have been offered a Metabo version at a reasonable price as they seem to be clearing them out. I am slightly concerned by the change over comments as I do lack patience and can see this as a potential frustration. Perhaps I might even consider separate machines as at the moment I am not space limited.

Rodders, thanks, a man after my own heart. I also hate to be beaten but am a bit impatient to get on with hacking some wood as I have spent the last 20 years or so rebuilding various metal working machines until I got what I wanted. I had spent many hours with Google and as you say found a good deal of information about the 635, except a parts diagram that has eluded me somehow. I have improved a little with my schoolboy french to make a little sense of some very good rebuild WIPs on some of their forums. Have to say though that route seems a bit of a labour of love.

I found your check list particularly valuable and worked my way through it as best I could, apart from the bearings I had already made and replaced all seem in first class condition. The overhand tables were well out and I have corrected that as far as possible. The thicknesser table was/is an issue, it appears to be warped diagonally, front right to left back, by over 2mm. Considerable time trying to adjust has not proved fruitful and I will have to strip it right out and get it onto the surface plate to see if I can get it straight again. I also have a problem with the outfeed roller pressure which appears to clamp the wood to the table and stop it feeding. The spring loading/adjustment seems very gummed up so needs more work. I have with your help got it to work after a fashion but it still leaves me with the impression that a full rework is the only way to get useful results from the machine.

Nathan, thanks your advice echos my own experience with metal working lathes. It took me a few years of frustrating work to be able to identify a "good" basis for a rebuild and as I know nothing about planner thicknessers, have less time left and less financial clout, I am concerned about buying a lemon.

Marcros and Rodger, I certainly find your discussion interesting but do not know enough about the subject to help. I certainly look at the design of PT cutter heads with straight blades at right angles to the cut direction and can't think of a more blunt way to approach the problem. It does however seem to be route to simple engineering, albeit at a cost to power needed and ultimate finish possible.

So I guess that I will still need to decide if repair or replace is the course for me. I am however, more concerned than ever as Bob was the only positive voice that the new machines could produce useful work.

Thanks again, regards

Keith

 

[blackrodd]

Sorry for being a bit slow,but i have a reprint of the original handbook for the 635/36 it has several breakdowns on the pressure bars, cutter block, bed action, drive for the feed on the side etc etc.
Also, Grinder set up and use that was available at the time.
If you would like this sent, pm me with you're address and I'll post it on. You can copy it you're self or send it back, when you have finished with it, (It's as new so hopefully you can keep it so)
Yep! fully agree, there are times when enough is enough and it's time to move on!
If you have really had enough then I would be interested in the 635, if it's not silly money.
Should you be willing to pallet it for me, as it is, bung the bits in a box. and post on.
Regards Rodders

 

[kmp]

Rodders Hi,

A very generous offer thank you very much. I have found fairly locally the two machines I was considering as replacement for the Kity and hope to have a much better look at each of them tomorrow. I will then have a more sensible look at the work involved with the 635 without the "rose tinted glasses" of new must be better. Hopefully I will be less agitated by then and able to make a fair comparison between the alternatives over the weekend.

A copy of the handbook would be a huge help should I decide to continue with it. I will of course keep it in the condition you have it. As soon as I have had chance to look and decide I will PM you with my details as appropriate. If I do give up on it I would be very happy for you to take the task on, the price will be sensible as I bought it very reasonably. I will of course pack it up for you but as my son is doing his post grad in Exeter and we visit him fairly often we might be able to arrange a delivery. I will PM you early next week and maybe we can discuss it further.

Many thanks, best regards

Keith

 

[blackrodd]

You are very welcome, If I can help just let me know.
Should we get as far as a meet/delivery, I would be more than happy to meet up in the Exeter area as you would, no doubt, have driven some distance by then. Regards Rodders

 

[kmp]

Well, "tomorrow" (in my last post) seems to get further and further away. finally after two weeks I got to see a fair range of the new machines available to replace my still misbehaving Kity 635. I have to say that I am rather disappointed.

While most of these look very similar I was a little surprised at the range of build and finish problems that I could find with just a cursory look. I didn't have my anorak on or my dial gauge, micrometer and straight edge with me thank goodness. To be honest most looked like they would work, at least for a time when set up but even between machines with the same name on the detail could vary widely. In the end I found one of each type I thought I could live with but still find the £600 or £850 needed to be off putting.

So, back to the Kity and with much fiddling have got it to be a more reasonable prospect for my simple needs. Two basic set up issues at the moment are still giving me problems. Firstly, the overhand tables are not in line lengthways, the tables are about 1mm out over their full length with the input table being lower at its' outer edge. I can't see any adjustment other than maybe shims under the slidebars, have I missed the obvious as usual?

The other issue is that when planing the wood has a tendency to hammer up and down, this is just 3" wide softwood and the blades appear to be sharp and I can't find any movement in the cutter block bearings. This happens even when I exert a lot of downward pressure on the wood so, is it my technique or have I missed something else here as well?

Rodders, as you can see I'm still struggling with this but am determined to find the cause even if I then decide not to fix it myself. I just cannot even contemplate selling it unless I know exactly what is wrong so that a buyer can be aware of the full picture.

Any further advice you might have would be much appreciated.

Regards

Keith

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

The juddering sounds like your blades are set at different heights and out of balance. Are you certain of uniformity across the block and a height above outfeed of between 1.5 and 4 thou? You certainly shouldn't need to really lean on a piece going over the cutters. Reasonable pressure only, as you might apply using one of those rubberised push blocks

 

[blackrodd]

The "hammering", I can only guess and suggest that you have not wound the thickness bed down, this would give you the sound i imagine you are experiencing 'cos the wood chips are not clearing underneath, clean out with a stick, and keep it clear.
Bear in mind, the chipping breaker works harder with blunt blades and makes heavier chips, that are more difficult to clear
Bed alignment, Wiggle the beds carefully, listen and try and feel any slack., It seems to me that if the out feed table is only out on 1 corner the you may have a twisted bed, which i find hard to accept unless the planer has suffered some real abuse in the past.
These machines are really well made!
One other consideration is the sad fact that many people will keep moving the machine around by heaving and pulling on the beds. Look around and try and keep that in mind.
Looking in my (636) book, underneath, where the bed locking lever is situated, is, what looks to be a stop, this is sloping, at the same angle as the underneath of the bed.
I suggest you get the ever useful *** packet and put 1 thickness under the bed, but on top of the sloping "stop"and check for any change or improvement in the alignment.
Should the lower bed problem be the fence side of the outfeed, then you may have to think of marking the mounting angled plate on the hinging side with a sharp scribe, for a reference point and carefully move and hopefully adjust it.
You are still welcome to loan the 636 book but there is very little in it apart from showing the machine working, so please be aware, the book may not be the sole answer.
Please be aware that this machine was very good and it is still difficult to find it's equal today IMO.
HTH Regards Rodders

 

[kmp]

Well, many thanks for the excellent advice as I now have some success to report.

Bob, when I bought the machine it came with a "new" set of blades all wrapped up and in a pretty blue plastic box - so I fitted them. With the help of your comments I decided to have a better look at them, they certainly are not a pair as one is about 0.035" thinner than the other and the cutting angles are different. No doubt this didn't help with the balance of the cutter head and a brand new set has transformed the machine which is now smooth and produces an excellent finish.

Rodders, your advice on the setting of the tables has been very useful. As you suggested the tables are certainly not twisted and according to a very expensive straight edge I borrowed are in fact very straight and true. Prompted by your comment re lifting I checked the infeed table mounting blocks and when the three bolts are backed off there is a little movement available to adjust the table to be in line with the outfeed table as it should be. I can't see any impact damage to the table so guess it has been moved by someone lifting on the table extremes. Anyway once set up properly the difference is remarkable. I also, having the overhand tables off, was able to get a really good look at the thicknesser bed and found what I thought was a high spot to be a little corrosion and a lot of ancient and very hard goo. With that removed, the surface waxed the feed rollers cleaned properly the wood feed now works very well. Sorry Rodders but your excellent advice means I shall be keeping and using the Kity - at least until my projects outgrow it.

So thank you very much for all your help and advice which has helped me to turn a basket case into a very usable little machine. As Rodders has said they are actually a very nice little planer thicknesser when properly cleaned and set up. A lesson learned I think for me.

Regards

Keith

 

[blackrodd]

I am really pleased that you have stayed with the Kity, a really excellent machine, as you have said.
Glad that I was able to help. Can I remind you that the re printed kity handbook is sold from time to time on Flea bay for about a fiver, which is good value and very handy to have, just type Kity in woodworking, if you haven't already.
Don't forget to check, or get a spare feed drive belt!
Regards Rodders

 

[Rohanww]

Hi, I apologise for posting on an old thread but hope someone can help me with my kity 636. I am just about to replace the belt for the feed 6mmx710mm I think, with an automotive belt . I'm wondering how to make it the right tension. I can see how to move the main cog wheel but don't understand the function of the wheel with a spring. Does the belt go over this wheel as well? Any scans or photos of the manual would really help.
Hopefully once I get a good tension in the belt the wood will feed ok. At the moment it jams under any amount of pressure but does turn initially.
Thanks
Rohan

 

[blackrodd]

Hello rohanww, and welcome, Looking in the Kity 636 book shows the belt driven by the cutter block driving the big wheel, page 30, tensioned by the jockey wheel.
I am unable to post pics so cannot show you the page.
At 6 mm x 710 the length should be correct for the tensioner (the wheel with the spring) to work using the original flat belt.
As The original belt was flat I would think that a flat belt replacement would be best as any other may bring difficulties, tensioning etc,best to try and keep original.
There's a link below for beltingonline.com who, I've been told are excellent on manufacture and supply of belts.
Optimax HF is the one for kity stuff, I'm told, its a flat, woven, reinforced etc and 1mm thick belt.
Recommended by a Kity seller he said they supplied a full set and they worked perfectly.
I bought a set from France a while ago, at £18. each and they are starting to show some wear already!
Please let us know how you get on, I can scan the page 30 layout if you really get stuck and post it up to you,
Whereabouts in Cider country are you?
regards rodders

http://www.beltingonline.com/flat-endless-belts-13049