Planer Thicknesser dilema

[Apache_sim]

I have read loads of threads about planer thicknessers and planers and thicknessers. I know that you only get what you pay for and in this day and age we can't afford to pay a lot, everyone expects more for less.

I am returning to woodworking after many years and now think I require a P/T or P and T.
As I am only a hobbyist and will most likely restrict myself to making boxes and smaller items my question is...

Are any of the P/T's or P and T's currently on the market so poor that I would not be able to produce square timber for small projects?

As I see it I have a number of options:
1. Purchase PAR stock and rip to size (limited to standard thicknesses)
2. Purchase a cheap P/T and perhaps live with frustration of not being able to produce square timber.
3. Push the boat out and buy a P and a T

 

[deema]

Good questions, and I'm sure there will be a lot of very informative views.

I started out using PAR and almost lost confidence in whether I could develop my limited skills. The issue I found out later was that PAR often looks nice, but is anything but flat and straight. Adjusting the thickness to anything other than standard sizes also proved a labour of frustrations without as I didn't have a good long flat plane.

If the budget allows, I would recommend a good planer Thicknesser. I would get one that is as large as funds and space allow. It's amazing how often any machine tends to be too small for the bit of wood that comes to hand. Planers and separate thicknesses are brilliant, and if funds and space allow this is probably the best solution.

However, a good planer Thicknesser is an excellent compromise. If I would suggest one buying guide, don't buy anything with lift up tables. If your tempted, take a straight edge and sit on the extremity of one of the surface tables. If it stays flat and true to the other surface table its a good machine, if not, you are probably seeing the main concern with this type of machine in that lifting and stability and very difficult requirements to get to coincide.

The old Wadkin, Cooksley and Robinson machines all have surfacing tables that do not lift up. The other common feature they all share is to have a solid cast iron chassis that connects all of the surface tables and Thicknesser tables together in a solid rigid frame. The cast iron not only damps vibration, but also keeps the critical alignment of the spindle, surface tabes and thickness table aligned. The only modern machine with these virtues I am aware of is the Sedgwick machines, a good UK manufactured product.

There are good machines on eBay if you know what you are looking for and avoid the 'projects', a good cast iron chassis machine will last many lifetimes and don't cost anywhere near the price of a 'cheap' modern machine.

 

[heimlaga]

I am with deema. A good quality secondhand machine in decent condition is usually the best buy.
My 60 years old 24" combination was completely worn out when I bought it but now after a thorough rebuild it is probably good for another 60 years of use. However i do not recommend buying such a big machine in such a hopeless condition as your first one nor for your intended use.
There are plenty of smaller models on the secondhand market to choose between. Ejca and Sedgwick and Wadkin-Bursgreen and Mortens and Felder and Stenberg are just a few excamples of elderly machines which still have a good reputation. Newer ones are too expensive for your needs but now and then there are old ones in decent condition for sale at a reasonable prize.
I bought a 60 years old very beaten up 10" Ejca combination 3 years ago. It was partly dismantled and suffered from some rough handling in the past but everything looked like it had not seen much use. I think that I paid 600 euros for it. I spent a couple of weekends fixing up the old Ejca at a cost of about 200 euros and after that it worked perfectly for a year of rather hard sometimes semiprofessional use until my paid jobs made me outgrow it and I sold it for 1100 euros and bought the 24" Stenberg.

Whether those small cheap new ones are too poor to allow you to produce straight and square timber is mostly up to your definition of "straight and square" but in my eyes at least half of the models sold today are useless as they do not make the wood straight and square enough for easy joinery. Plastic and aluminium are simply not strong and stiff enough and when nothing is straight everything becomes more difficult and frustrating.

On the combination versus separate planer and thicknesser issue there are as many oppinions as there are woodworkers. In my oppinion a combination is better in a cramped shop where you otherwise would end up with a too small planer and a flimsy benchtop thicknesser. For doing large work in a large shop separates are better but then we are talking about way bigger projects than you are doing and huge cast iron industrial machines with capacity from 16 inches and upwards to over 30 inches.

Just my personal oppinions. There will surely be other fellows around with slightly diverging oppinions based on experiences different than mine.

 

[siggy_7]

I think you will find buying your own machine quickly pays for itself compared to getting a timber merchant to prepare your stock for you, plus your results should be better. Avoid buying PAR stuff that's bought in by the merchants pre-prepared.

I bought a second hand 10" P/T off the classifieds here for a very reasonable price, and for hobbyists it does a good job. I think a 10" combination machine would be very well suited to your needs, the right machine properly set up will give excellent results and sufficient capacity for your needs from what you say. I have the Scheppach HMS 260 with pressed steel tables and a removable out-feed table. I had concerns about the alignment of a removable table but I have checked it several times with a straight edge and feeler gauge between replacing it and found that the mechanism gives repeatable and acceptable alignment. I think buying the right machine is key - the Scheppach gets a good review from most members, as does the Axminster AW106PT/2 and clones. The cheaper bench top machines are lighter built and have very noisy brush motors in, from what others say they still give good results but you need to take smaller cuts, be prepared for fiddly fence alignment issues and managing larger work carefully, as well as having to take neighbours into consideration a lot more with the racket they make.

 

[marcros]

What about using hand tools? Sooner or later you are likely to come across a piece of timber too wide for your planer, so could need to use them anyway- i find that box lids are a prime example of this on my 6" planer. Providing my timber is vaguely flat, I have successfully managed to produce a flat, thinner board using just the thicknesser and very light passes. It isnt textbook, may not be suitable for maintaining as much thickness as possible and some people tell you that it cant be done, but it works for me.

I have the axi cs150 6" standalone planer and i think it is excellent. I only wish it was 10" +, because I am starting to find it a bit limiting. It has a 3 cutter block, so i am a bit reluctant to change it for a larger 2 cutter model at present because the finish is so good. The cs150/2 is the current model, and i dont think is much changed. They are both a good second hand buy.

I also have an axi ct330 thicknesser which i rate highly. bench top, noisy, but does the job very well.

When i come to upgrade the above machines, i will try to retain seperate machines if i have the space. I cannot see myself changing the thicknesser for some time because i would need to find space for a floor standing model, or change both for a p/t.

On a budget, i would be tempted to get an old stanley/record plane or two, and get a thicknesser similar to mine (thicknesser would set you back £150-£200 used i would think). I dont think that you will get a new pt for that kind of money that will be as good, and when you come to upgrade, a £200 p/t will be nearly worthless.

May be worth a wanted ad in the relevant section. I had a quick glance on ebay, and couldnt immediately see anything worth PMing you to look at and not knowing what you want to spend it is difficult to know exactly what to suggest.

 

[Apache_sim]

Thanks for the advice and personal opinions, which are all very constructive, I do have some hand planes inherited from my father-in-law and will put them to good use (after some practice). I also looked on Ebay and and apart from collection from long distances and 3 phase P/T's not much to look at..

I am viewing a Scheppach HMS260 on Friday, I am assuming it is quite old, also steel in and out feeds, but has provoked some loving comments on this forum over the years (going back to 2004). Because, this is may first P/T the second hand route does fill me with fear just a little although I am mechanically savvy, planer thicknessers are a whole new ball game.

I would prefer to go the new route if there was something on the market that would make a good and accurate hobby P/T, and within my budget.

 

[Fatboy]

I recently bought the FOX F22-564-250 for the garage/workshop at under £280. Its does what I need, I've just put some white oak through it without a hitch, it will take upto 250mm widths and 125mm thichnesser and so far has been problem free and produced good results. For occasional hobby use it would be fine but not as good as a better quality second hand unit

 

[snax]

I have just been through the same dilemma.

I took the advice:

****General consensus is that whatever you buy, the wood you will have to hand will be bigger…
****Cast Iron is the best material for chassis and bed

In my search for a machine I opted for a planer thicknesser and I was looking at a Wadkin or Sedgwick. It appeared that, from the bidding on ebay that the wadkins were by far favoured as the prices they went for were extreme. You could take this two ways, investment for the future knowing what you pay for it now will see a return when you come to sell it or there is a snobbery that is fuelling itself and maintaining inflated prices.

I bought a Sedgwick MD for £450 from a joiner that sadly went out of business and the machine is solid as a rock the only issue is the weight so with it I bought a 2 ton crane £150. For this price I could have got an unloved Wadkin.

Good Luck Looking

Dan

 

[Apache_sim]

I received some great advice.. and in the end went for separates -- Axminster CT105 and Jet JWP12.
Ordered the CT105 from Axminster of Friday (paid £15 for Saturday delivery) and there is was lunchtime Saturday, delivered in two boxes assembly was a doddle.
However, Axminster wouldn't price match Norfolk Saw Services for the Jet JWP12 ( which came with stand and spare set of blades) at only £19 guide more than the base price for the thicknesser .. well done Norfolk Saw Services.
Big thanks also to Dodge for advice and putting me onto NSS.

 

[Apache_sim]

Well here I go off to try put the Thicknesser and Jointer or should I say Surfacer and Jointer.
The aim is to have a little practice, then recheck the the surfacers strings and hopefully prepare some wood to make a basic box.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I've been to hell and back with this same dilemma. I outgrew my first p/t 18 months ago and very very carefully researched the replacement because I didn't ever want to go back to the market after this purchase. The research took me all over the Internet and e bay for a six month period. I visited numerous dealers and also the large D&M tool show in my sweep

I narrowed the choice to the jet 12" machine that was about £1500 versus the Startrite sd300 which was £1300. I plumped for the sd300. My needs were cast iron, including the fence as I like to use mag jig feather boards on small stock. Thus I needed to avoid aluminium fences. I really desperately wanted to avoid finicky changeover from planing to thicknessing and the startrite is excellent for that as only the outfeed flips up. I also wanted a three knife cutter block for quality of finish and long tables. All the mid range models have table lengths way too short for my taste. I knew the moment I got it in the shop a two metre board would magically appear before me!

I also wanted weight, at quarter tonne it ain't going nowhere

 

[Apache_sim]

That kind of equipment is punching way above my weight ('scuse the pun).
Perhaps one day though

 

[peter99]

I bought a Wadkin BOAS P/T about 4 years ago on Ebay. prisine condition and hardly any usage, been in a heated university workshop where they did very little woodwork.
I paid £550 for it.

Just looked on Ebay and now over £2000!

Jeez,

 

[Dodge]

I received some great advice.. and in the end went for separates -- Axminster CT105 and Jet JWP12.
Ordered the CT105 from Axminster of Friday (paid £15 for Saturday delivery) and there is was lunchtime Saturday, delivered in two boxes assembly was a doddle.
However, Axminster wouldn't price match Norfolk Saw Services for the Jet JWP12 ( which came with stand and spare set of blades) at only £19 guide more than the base price for the thicknesser .. well done Norfolk Saw Services.
Big thanks also to Dodge for advice and putting me onto NSS.

My pleasure Mick, glad you are happy with your new equipment