Plane greedy

[Ttrees]

Hello
Those look like good users.
Just so you know... lapping a plane like in that video will not produce a flat surface.
If your afraid of the file, see David W's recent post on that...as I've never tried doing that,
and are wanting to lap the sole flat,
say on a suitable surface plate with abrasives held down firmly...
Then you need to understand that you will produce a convex profile if you keep lapping.
You need to hollow out the middle with a smaller area abrasive than the surface you intend to work.
The same principal as with stopped shavings (see David Charlesworth)
The edges of the plane are reference areas which shouldn't be dubbed over like that!.
I made a video about this as I feel strongly about folks not wanting to potentially wreck their vintage planes.

Tom
https://youtu.be/F1X56MKUEZ0
https://youtu.be/bfdmnMTK7Og

 

[woodhutt]

Tom, thanks for your input. I watched your two videos with interest but found them a little difficult to hear your voice-over (no doubt due to my poor laptop speakers and my ancient lug'oles ).
I am pretty much following the same technique as you but using wider abrasive to cover the entire sole width. If I read your post right, you are advocating a slightly concave finish to the sole by using narrower abrasive sheets?
I looked for Charlesworth's video on this subject but couldn't find it. Maybe you could post a link when you have time?
Nor could I find DW's post on the same subject so, if he's reading this maybe he could point me in the right direction.
Cheers,
Pete

 

[Ttrees]

Hello again
I will have to make another video on the subject sometime that will get my point across with more clarity and with hopefully less ramblings.
I'm not versed enough with computers to make a voice over in a video.
Its hard to stay anonymous on video while trying at the same time to be clearly spoken.

Here is David Weavers recent post on the subject.
post1352590.html?hilit=file%20sole#p1352590

In an attempt to sum up what I'm saying
Yes, to get a flat surface the edges need to be proud first.
I am advocating that you need to hollow the middle out first before touching it on a full width and length abrasive.
If you keep lapping on a larger area than the plane is, in hope to get full contact there will be a large belly in the middle of the plane, this being more noticeable lengthwise.
This is because there is only one registration point which will rock the plane like a see saw, and creates the illusion of getting closer to being flatter because you are trusting those marker lines.

It just cannot be done like that, no matter how careful or precise the methodology.
If you are worried about a concave sole after you've flattened it so as only the edges are proud, it is
not an issue to remedy on full width abrasive or doing various techniques to blend it to being dead flat.
The abrasive will be hungry for those edges afterwards, as there would be very little contact area.

I'm sure David Charlesworth has mentioned stopped shavings in one of his planing videos on youtube, its the same principal really.
He's worth watching BTW!

I hope I've explained things well enough.
It took lapping quite a few things to make me realise this
Nothing worse than someone skilful to give out terrible advice like in that video, to folks who put much trust in him.
Its no wonder why folks refer to the comedian instead.

Tom

 

[D_W]

Update.
Here's a pic of the two soles condition after a couple of passes over some 240 grit. Trump's sole (and you thought he didn't have one!) is the lower one and pretty much as you'd expect with the wear in the centre. Trudeau's, apart from being sadly rusted, looks like it has never been fettled, at least not for a long time and the wear is uneven. It will take some elbow grease to cure it but luckily there is no serious pitting.
I'm also having some trouble removing one of Trudeau's frog screws, both of which have been cinched down really tight. After lots of penetrating oil I've managed to loosen one but the other is obstinate and I'm in danger of b.gg.ring the head. I might have to resort to an Easy-Out and replace the screw.

More to come.
Pete

do you have one of those nifty 1/4 inch impact drivers? that may help. Also, any ability to apply heat to the screw? Probably iffy on something that small. heat to everything would be nice, but curtains for japanning.

tapping the head of the screw may also help (nothing rough, just some light tapping to try to break any corrosion bond)

 

[D_W]

Thoughts on this:
* I'd drop to 80 grit paper and continue lapping
* if lapping makes the planes concave as we're discussing, then you can file the center out and do what's shown in my thread

if filing sucks, then you can use said 80 grit paper on a small block and grind the center bits out until it's just hollow and finish lap

I was motivated to do the hollow center infill method because lapping mild steel on an infill plane is TERRIBLE. it's really resistant to abrasion.

you need coarser paper to speed the metal removal rate, though - the faster you get the initial metal removed, the flatter the plane will be, just as you'll be more accurate planing if you can do most of the sizing work with thicker shavings.

 

[cdelston]

All water pump pliers in our workshop are known as 'old pippers', for reasons. Impact drivers are 'rattlers'. We have a selection of brass hexagon billets known collectively as 'the G squad', and individually stamped Gordon, George and Graham.

 

[G S Haydon]

Great planes. Not pre WW2 which everybody seems to assume means quality, when actually they can be as bad as any other plane. The ones you have are in my opinion the best.

As David mentioned, don't bother with 240, use 60 or 80 grit to get you flat and don't be afraid to keep the paper clean and refresh it often. With a bit of effort these have the potential to be lifetime tools.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I am advocating that you need to hollow the middle out first before touching it on a full width and length abrasive.
If you keep lapping on a larger area than the plane is, in hope to get full contact there will be a large belly in the middle of the plane, this being more noticeable lengthwise.

I think this is fairly clear, if you lap on a flat surface, it can't end up concave, only if the pressure is absolutely perfectly distributed can it end up flat, in the real world it will end up convex to some degree.

But on the other hand, a concave plane is awful to use - no cutting, adjust iron out a bit more, still no cutting, adjust, oops, huge bite out of the workpiece. The plane sits on the ends of the sole with the iron in the air until it touches the wood, then the compliance in plane or workpiece pulls the sole into full contact and the iron takes a big bite. A slightly convex plane is not really a problem IMHO - provided you are relying on your control to some extent to get the piece flat, not expecting the plane to do everything for you like magic.

 

[Ttrees]

The amount of concavity I am suggesting is not enough to cause problems though, and the lappee can decide how much with this method.
I'm talking about a few seconds of work to make flat, not suggesting one would leave much to take off afterwards.
The all important reference ink becoming a darker colour at the edges.
A convex end result by lapping like most others may well render a plane with movable mouth useless because the reference is gone and the bed of the movable shoe is all you have to work with.
But more on point...planes which don't have the beefiest castings but still need work like the OP's because of the problem you mention...
Then the "principal" I have demonstrated in the video needs to be adhered to, in order to take off the absolute minimal amount of material possible.


Tom