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Pine - Heartwood/Sapwood?

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JimWoodwork1975

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Having been bit by the woodworking bug I thought it important to back up my enthusiasm with some solid knowledge. I've started with looking at Hardwood/Softwood meaning and differences and now I'm learning about Heartwood and Sapwood which seems pretty straightforward but here's a (2 part) question.

1. When a product such as a premium pine deckboard is described as 'produced from 80 year old slow grown premium European Pine that produces tight, compact growth rings' are they saying that it has been manufactured purely from the heartwood?

2. Is all untreated pine you can buy heartwood?

Any guidance would be much appreciated.

Cheers, Jim
 

Benchwayze

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Jim,

Most softwood you buy from your local DIY is not really dry, it's fast grown, usually, and you are lucky if you get stuff that is from the area close to the heart of the tree.

If I want quarter-sawn oak for instance, I prefer to ask for a 'centre board' or near centre-board' from a through-sawn bole, as they are normally wider than true quarter sawn timber. Less expensive, but just as well figured. I have a 12 foot centre board at home which after 10 years is just about ready!
 

Droogs

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In answer to your Qs
1. No, they are just saying it will be a denser and stronger log/plank than plantation grown pine.
2. No, if the source is plantation grown then it is probably a fast growing species as opposed to slow and will have more than likely been felled before it has had a chance to even start forming heartwood. In essence it is all sapwood.
Heartwood is deadwood, it is that part of the tree which has stopped receiving nutrients and is there purely to give support and strength to the tree while the living sapwood continues to grow around it. For pine This is not really a problem in terms of strength and durability once dry

hth
 

Benchwayze

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Not as I've noticed Phil!

Like the board, I'm not as green as I once was. :wink:

No splits at all in this board; and the pith is where the splits occur; almost a foregone conclusion. If I want a usable wide board, I'd go for something less close to the centre, but I am prepared to cut out pith if needs be. You could say I take the pith out of the tree! 8)

These days it's academic, as most yards don't like you sorting through a stack. That's another reason I use Geo. Sykes. They do the sorting for you, and I never had a bad delivery from them in 40 years or so.

John (hammer)
 

JimWoodwork1975

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Benchwayze":q1j7u2ma said:
Jim,

Most softwood you buy from your local DIY is not really dry, it's fast grown, usually, and you are lucky if you get stuff that is from the area close to the heart of the tree.

If I want quarter-sawn oak for instance, I prefer to ask for a 'centre board' or near centre-board' from a through-sawn bole, as they are normally wider than true quarter sawn timber. Less expensive, but just as well figured. I have a 12 foot centre board at home which after 10 years is just about ready!
'Quarter Board'... I think you've just opened up my next area of study, =D>
I'll look at how timber is cut and what the different properties of the cuts are.

'10 years... ready'? Is this to do with 'resting' time?
 

JimWoodwork1975

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Droogs":1epm7tsj said:
In answer to your Qs
1. No, they are just saying it will be a denser and stronger log/plank than plantation grown pine.
2. No, if the source is plantation grown then it is probably a fast growing species as opposed to slow and will have more than likely been felled before it has had a chance to even start forming heartwood. In essence it is all sapwood.
Heartwood is deadwood, it is that part of the tree which has stopped receiving nutrients and is there purely to give support and strength to the tree while the living sapwood continues to grow around it. For pine This is not really a problem in terms of strength and durability once dry

hth
Thanks very much. Good to start learning about the difference timber which grows slowly in a more natural habitat and that grown on a plantation.
 

Benchwayze

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JimWoodwork1975":p537m139 said:
Benchwayze":p537m139 said:
Jim,

Most softwood you buy from your local DIY is not really dry, it's fast grown, usually, and you are lucky if you get stuff that is from the area close to the heart of the tree.

If I want quarter-sawn oak for instance, I prefer to ask for a 'centre board' or near centre-board' from a through-sawn bole, as they are normally wider than true quarter sawn timber. Less expensive, but just as well figured. I have a 12 foot centre board at home which after 10 years is just about ready!
'Quarter Board'... I think you've just opened up my next area of study, =D>
I'll look at how timber is cut and what the different properties of the cuts are.

'10 years... ready'? Is this to do with 'resting' time?
Well in a way Jim; but in this case it was due to 'a round tuit!' My wife fell ill at the time I was about to start the job and I never had chance to get around to it. It was an air dried board, so I'd have let it acclimatise for about six months all the same.
 

Woody2Shoes

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JimWoodwork1975":ortvyjtq said:
Droogs":ortvyjtq said:
In answer to your Qs
1. No, they are just saying it will be a denser and stronger log/plank than plantation grown pine.
2. No, if the source is plantation grown then it is probably a fast growing species as opposed to slow and will have more than likely been felled before it has had a chance to even start forming heartwood. In essence it is all sapwood.
Heartwood is deadwood, it is that part of the tree which has stopped receiving nutrients and is there purely to give support and strength to the tree while the living sapwood continues to grow around it. For pine This is not really a problem in terms of strength and durability once dry

hth
Thanks very much. Good to start learning about the difference timber which grows slowly in a more natural habitat and that grown on a plantation.
At a higher level it's down to the latitude at which the tree grew - higher latitudes have a shorter growing season - which is why, for example, western red cedar grown in the UK will be less dense (and somewhat less durable) than wrc grown in northern Canada. At a micro level, coppiced sweet chestnut grown in the southern UK on a north-facing slope can sometimes command a slight price premium over stuff grown on a south-facing slope - for the same reason.

The downside, of course, is that it takes longer to replenish stocks of slow-grown timber - the only (sustainable) way to improve the availability of 200-year-old oak is to plant more oak trees and wait 200 years! From a sustainability point of view, it's probably best to use a relatively fast-grown - farmed - timber (for eample, the source material for Accoya - which is extremely durable, but not (classically?) beautiful - fits this profile nicely) - in the UK this could be spruce, douglas fir, wrc, sweet chestnut - also perhaps French oak and German beech and birch, which are extensively plantation-grown.

Cheers, W2S
 

thetyreman

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in softwoods you want to actively look for tight growth rings, if you get a piece that has a lot of growth rings within say a 1 inch area, it's usually stronger and higher quality, this is the main difference I have noticed between say B&Q TAT :lol: banana wood and high quality PAR Redwood pine.
 

Benchwayze

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It's all very well knowing all these arcane facts about timber. But at the end of the day, that will encourage you to learn how to spot a piece of good stuff when you see it; and when you do see it; buy it!
 

Sgian Dubh

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Droogs":12xezzvw said:
Heartwood is deadwood, it is that part of the tree which has stopped receiving nutrients and is there purely to give support and strength to the tree while the living sapwood continues to grow around it.
Hmm? Not quite as you describe it I'd say, Droogs.

You could just check about half way down page 26 of a book you have for an alternative, and I believe slightly better description of heartwood, ha, ha. Slainte.
 

woodbloke66

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JimWoodwork1975":1el5ygdr said:
'Quarter Board'... I think you've just opened up my next area of study, =D>
I'll look at how timber is cut and what the different properties of the cuts are.

'10 years... ready'? Is this to do with 'resting' time?
If you really want to know about wood, read Richard Jone's 'Cut & Dried'. I'm around half way through now and what Richard doesn't know about timber could be writ on the back of a small postage stamp. Highly recommended - Rob
 

Benchwayze

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Sgian Dubh":muzt3vpl said:
Droogs":muzt3vpl said:
Heartwood is deadwood, it is that part of the tree which has stopped receiving nutrients and is there purely to give support and strength to the tree while the living sapwood continues to grow around it.
Hmm? Not quite as you describe it I'd say, Droogs.

You could just check about half way down page 26 of a book you have for an alternative, and I believe slightly better description of heartwood, ha, ha. Slainte.
https://kitchencabinetkings.com/glossary/heartwood/

Why I like heartwood!
 

Benchwayze

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woodbloke66":2f895oei said:
JimWoodwork1975":2f895oei said:
'Quarter Board'... I think you've just opened up my next area of study, =D>
I'll look at how timber is cut and what the different properties of the cuts are.

'10 years... ready'? Is this to do with 'resting' time?
If you really want to know about wood, read Richard Jone's 'Cut & Dried'. I'm around half way through now and what Richard doesn't know about timber could be writ on the back of a small postage stamp. Highly recommended - Rob
Almost unbelievable. Amazon doesn't have this book!

I found a supplier though! They will be thinking I've gone mad this month for orders!
 

JimWoodwork1975

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woodbloke66":xo7syrx5 said:
JimWoodwork1975":xo7syrx5 said:
'Quarter Board'... I think you've just opened up my next area of study, =D>
I'll look at how timber is cut and what the different properties of the cuts are.

'10 years... ready'? Is this to do with 'resting' time?
If you really want to know about wood, read Richard Jone's 'Cut & Dried'. I'm around half way through now and what Richard doesn't know about timber could be writ on the back of a small postage stamp. Highly recommended - Rob
Cheers, I appreciate that. I'll have a look.
 

Sgian Dubh

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Benchwayze":2xd1gz2z said:
Almost unbelievable. Amazon doesn't have this book!
I found a supplier though! They will be thinking I've gone mad this month for orders!
Amazon don't stock it because the publisher, Lost Art Press (LAP), won't deal with them. If I recall correctly the reason why this is the case given by LAP, it's because Amazon (and perhaps other bulk buyer/sellers) demand such large wholesale discounts that small publishing houses with their specialised niche book titles and relatively small print runs just wouldn't be able to make a profit.

Talking of print runs, Lost Art Press have just had delivery of a batch of Cut & Dried, the result of its second print run just over a year since the book was released in June, 2018, which is heartening news for both me and the publisher, i.e., sales have been, and are, pretty healthy.

Anyway, I appreciate the fact you've purchased a copy, and truly hope you find the book informative. Many thanks. Slainte.
 

Droogs

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Richard, I will have a proper look tonight (bedside reading) and then stand corrected :oops:
 
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