Adam W.
A Major Clanger
Oh dear !No carry on if it keeps you happy!
They are less common than skew in my experience but I'm not going to start counting them!
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Paul Sellers says cap iron position doesn’t matter
- Thread starter paulrbarnard
- Start date
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thomashenry
Established Member
Zero-to-minimum skilled people? If these are projects for 'zero-to-minimum skill' hand tool woodworkers, I'd love to know what sort of things 'basic to intermediate' people make, let alone 'moderately advanced' and above.
https://woodworkingmasterclasses.com/videos/laptop-desk-info-page/https://woodworkingmasterclasses.com/videos/sellers-home-rocking-chair/https://woodworkingmasterclasses.com/videos/babys-cot/
Whether intentional or not, your post comes across as rather arrogant and dismissive.
Jacob
Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
What's so difficult about trying something so basic and easy, if you don't think honing a camber like I shown the hard part?
That's where I'm confused.
The fact is that everyone and their dog has made a stack of videos about most aspects of basic planing.
Why muddy the waters by making a video especially about the cap iron and then discount it?
Must be strange to make a video or talk about it, whilst knowing it works like a silver bullet, yet pretend it doesn't work well at all.
I suppose that would be forgivable if it was the 1990's,
But its 2021 and you've seen David's videos.
Not that Sellers is the only guru who discounts the tool
Cosman does be at that also.
It seems those two and a few others think they have something to lose from showing how to use the cap iron.
Bizarre clandestine advice to keep folks awaiting expecting the second part to a certain video, or others selling some sort of kit to try an get the best edge for those tough examples, when any sharp edge would be grand instead, regardless what method/abrasive one uses for honing.
When will these folks realize that this is their cash cow, and it's been hiding under curly shavings because it's not being used.
Would love to see Cosman give it a bash, because he actually is honest regarding the work, like he did with say the Chris Pye carving video, but he's got like 10 kids to feed, so suppose it might be risky if he stands to loose money on unnecessary sharpening stones.
I'm sure there lovely, but outta my price range.
What does it matter I suppose, anyone can demonstrate skills to be learned...
Suppose I just want to see some other folks take on honing an iron nicely for the cap to work in various fine cambers.
Tom
He does cover more ground than just beginners' stuff but he is very good on basics. Breath of fresh air in fact.
simoncmason
Member
I don't have a wooden rebate plane, but I do have a #10 and a #90 so I can go both ways - but I'm not sure how this would help? It'll either tear one way or the other as the grain reverses around the knot.
I was able to get fairly minimal tear in this case, but unacceptable as it was for the window frame which can be seen when the window is open, and of course the figure around the knot draws your eye to it. But I'm wondering about eliminating it altogether with a rebate plane with no cap iron to save having to go to the electrical router and then sand the router marks out. Are you saying the wooden rebate planes are better at controling tear out?
Jacob
Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
No they aren't but they are easy to use. But if you are talking about big rebates not glazing rebates, then a 10 should be good rather than the narrower 78.
A 90 is a shoulder plane for cross grain and not too good for long grain rebates.
simoncmason
Member
OK - I expect the problem is with the operator
More practice needed with the #10 then!Thanks for the advice
Well, I was aiming for arrogant, dismissive, and condenscending. Two out of three ain't bad, I suppose.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
You've got to be quick here.......
I'd try and plane from one side of the knot, change direction then plane the other way.
It's a bit of grief, but it's a workaround. Wooden rebate planes aren't any better than metal rebate planes, but I find the large metal ones uncomfortable to hold. If you already have a No.10 try that, but it may be a bit large to use on a window rebate.
If a wooden one is too large, just cut it down in length.
I'd try and plane from one side of the knot, change direction then plane the other way.
It's a bit of grief, but it's a workaround. Wooden rebate planes aren't any better than metal rebate planes, but I find the large metal ones uncomfortable to hold. If you already have a No.10 try that, but it may be a bit large to use on a window rebate.
If a wooden one is too large, just cut it down in length.
simoncmason
Member
OK - I'll keep practicing with the #10 - I've only really used it for cleaning up big tenons for timber framing work which it is a dream at - but it gives me the chance to try in both directions for difficult wood. These rebates were quite big to accommodate the casement and draught excluder so would have been OK with the #10.
Thanks for the advice.
Droogs
Not the Sharpest Moderator in the box
Having the cap iron in a position where it can have an effect on the shaving as it passes over the back of the iron as it passes the edge has been proven to be beneficial. However the physics and logic dictate the the gap between the iron edge and the cap iron should be the same as the thickness of the shaving you want to produce. This is however almost impossible to do on a consistently repeatable basis and so having it roughly where it needs to be is what we as the planer settle for. Attempting anything else is anal and just stupid, especially when you consider the time you would waste doing so with these tools that were not invented or made for la de da pussy cat footing around use by amatuers but quick efficient use by people making a living from there use. The argument is moot therefore as neither of you do woodwork for your daily bread.
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Which is basically saying you agree that the video in question is misleading.
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Aye simples it is.
The camber gets matched with the timber in question, or one could even have a different iron or plane for the job if there was a lot of variance in the work.
I agree that it's better than the suck it and see, as many have mentioned, better to use a smoother on near finished work so you can trust that tearout won't be a problem,
And likewise with rougher timber using the largest distance you can achieve, if you work with timber that shares the same characteristics, you should have settled on the profile what suits the work.
I wouldn't pair a super dense example of iroko with a light piece in a project, as I'd rather use the heavy stuff for nice things.
When I go through all the good stuff, I'll consider what project the less dense stuff might be a better application for using.
Tom
The camber gets matched with the timber in question, or one could even have a different iron or plane for the job if there was a lot of variance in the work.
I agree that it's better than the suck it and see, as many have mentioned, better to use a smoother on near finished work so you can trust that tearout won't be a problem,
And likewise with rougher timber using the largest distance you can achieve, if you work with timber that shares the same characteristics, you should have settled on the profile what suits the work.
I wouldn't pair a super dense example of iroko with a light piece in a project, as I'd rather use the heavy stuff for nice things.
When I go through all the good stuff, I'll consider what project the less dense stuff might be a better application for using.
Tom
we've not seen evidence of any planing that would make credible agreement or disagreement in this case.
A #10 is going to be a bear to use in difficult wood - BTDT. You're essentially trying to make a controlled cut laterally in difficult to plane wood (but the plane will mitigate tearout). In narrower rebates where you can take a bigger bite, they're awkward. Unless you're just smoothing something with them, a better policy is using a coarser plane to cut the rabbet and a fine plane to finish it if for some reason it will show (ulmia made a nice double iron rebate plane that is the cats rear end for this in the cases that wood isn't good enough to have a predominant direction from end to end in a rebate - like curly or whatever else).
or, you can learn it at the outset and take continuous shavings in difficult wood and avoid the what iffery about all kinds of nonsense (Scraping planes, high angle planes, etc).
There's a parallel here in that hobbyists don't want to learn anything about design. You can "learn it later". It's a very arbitrary thing to suggest that someone who thinks they'll tackle woodworking couldn't have rudimentary discussions about design and proportion to avoid making horrid looking things and staring at the dovetail sockets endlessly while doing it.
In the case where someone decides they really don't want to use planes much at all and sticks with it, then that's fine. I doubt there are many professional guitar makers planing wood at this point - they're not working much wood and the portable drum sanders eliminate the need to handle figured wood (especially thin figured wood), and guaranteed, the customers won't care.
thomashenry
Established Member
Why?
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Agreed I was just about to dive further into the deep end of nonsense and
expensive to buy/time consuming to make BU tools before I stumbled across your SMC posts, and Woodcentral article.
I wouldn't say that there aren't many pros luthiers using a plane though...
And the folks who don't use a plane, their sanders get really easily clogged on the exotics like cocobolo.
I was about to build one of those thickness sanders until I heard the name Rob Cosman, thanks to one of Steve Maskery's name dropping in one of his vids.
expensive to buy/time consuming to make BU tools before I stumbled across your SMC posts, and Woodcentral article.
I wouldn't say that there aren't many pros luthiers using a plane though...
And the folks who don't use a plane, their sanders get really easily clogged on the exotics like cocobolo.
I was about to build one of those thickness sanders until I heard the name Rob Cosman, thanks to one of Steve Maskery's name dropping in one of his vids.
If you want to do woodworking, just do it, you will learn some stuff on the long and painful path.
If you want to learn woodworking, learn about wood and cutting tools, you will have a much more enjoyable journey.
Understanding handplanes is;
Not new, not complicated, not BS. and worth the effort.
Anyone that teaches different is sending you down the hard road.
Move the chipbreaker back when the going is easy, move it close to the cutting edge when the grain is causing issues, and the chipbreaker will help prevent torn grain.
"and capable of adjustment to different distances from the cutting edge, according to the kind of work and the character of the material." etc..
Set the cap iron close. experiment with how close according to the work and material, you will figure it out.
First lesson done. Not a difficult lesson was it. A beginner should be able to handle all that information.
If you want to learn woodworking, learn about wood and cutting tools, you will have a much more enjoyable journey.
Understanding handplanes is;
Not new, not complicated, not BS. and worth the effort.
Anyone that teaches different is sending you down the hard road.
Move the chipbreaker back when the going is easy, move it close to the cutting edge when the grain is causing issues, and the chipbreaker will help prevent torn grain.
"and capable of adjustment to different distances from the cutting edge, according to the kind of work and the character of the material." etc..
Set the cap iron close. experiment with how close according to the work and material, you will figure it out.
First lesson done. Not a difficult lesson was it. A beginner should be able to handle all that information.
classical guitars are one of the few places where lots of money is spent and much of the work is done by hand. Even Yamaha, I believe, has some high end models (some people are going to laugh at this, but consider being in japan and talking about $12,000 guitars, not $500 guitars distributed in the USA) with a french polish finish (with low string energy, stuff like thick finishes start to matter a lot - and avoiding them is a better outcome).
That said the typical $4000 american acoustic guitar with a red spruce top will go through a drum sander (a good one) to be thicknessed for stiffness. This is a whole lot easier to do with a drum sander (no, I don't have one) to achieve a desired stiffness. Production guitars aren't going to get that kind of attention, but at the $4000+ level, buyers don't want to get guitars where some are lively and some are dead, so someone with skill will find ideal stiffness instead. Not sure if that makes sense to folks, but it means each guitar that comes out of a small production shop is going to have pretty close to ideal timbre.
But, on a day to day basis, that also needs to be done faster than by hand.
I plane and scrape everything that I can on electrics so far, and at some point will move to acoustics and do all of it by hand, but aside from a few one man shops, there's not a lot of guitar making taught or practiced with mostly hand tools (lots of scraper, chisels for bracing and chisel work done fitting neck dovetails, etc, but much of the rest sees people avoiding maximizing hand work. Too bad - even very crude guitars like fender benefit from some hand tool clean up, especially in regard to bedding the neck pocket and bottom of the neck).
Mark H above is one of about three or four people who had ever talked about using a cap iron (accurately) before I started gimmicking it everywhere in 2012.
Without separate discussion, at best, we'd still have people claiming that you need to cut a large flat 80 degree wall on a plane cap iron and set it at 8 thousandths of an inch.
There was someone on here from finland who mentioned using one to mitigate tearout (after figuring it out, I dredged the forums to find anyone who actually ever talked about it other than Warren Mickley, and there wasn't much - knowing that as soon as you show how to use something, the "I already knew that" jackwagons come out of the woodwork.....).
There was one other member on here who had said something relevant in 2005 or 2007 or so, but I can't remember where from or who it was - it went over everyones' head. The fellow from finland said that he wasn't looking for any fights - that was butt deep in bevel up "this is better than anything ever made" talk at that time, and I guess he had been ridiculed at some point.
Without separate discussion, at best, we'd still have people claiming that you need to cut a large flat 80 degree wall on a plane cap iron and set it at 8 thousandths of an inch.
There was someone on here from finland who mentioned using one to mitigate tearout (after figuring it out, I dredged the forums to find anyone who actually ever talked about it other than Warren Mickley, and there wasn't much - knowing that as soon as you show how to use something, the "I already knew that" jackwagons come out of the woodwork.....).
There was one other member on here who had said something relevant in 2005 or 2007 or so, but I can't remember where from or who it was - it went over everyones' head. The fellow from finland said that he wasn't looking for any fights - that was butt deep in bevel up "this is better than anything ever made" talk at that time, and I guess he had been ridiculed at some point.
