AESamuel
Established Member
I already commented on that video and got a reply from Paul himself - I was incredibly unimpressed with his almost authoritarian attitude. Absolutely bonkers!
Paul Sellers says cap iron position doesn’t matter
- Thread starter paulrbarnard
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Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Have you noticed wear happening yourself Ivan?
Can't say I've ever had that problem, and I hone the underside less perpendicular (with more undercut) than most folks I've seen, so should be a bit more fragile, but never experienced this that wasn't from some cement.
I do metalwork and get some metal embedded in the stock
but notice no issue with the cap when 1/32" away from the edge, compared to the damage the iron will get.
Thought if it were a problem I would increase the angle of the edge, but doesn't seem to be an issue.
Since were actually having a discussion of cap irons for once and the matched geometry of things regarding cambers or eased edges...
Another issue I think worth mentioning is fitting the underside of the cap iron.
I haven't heard anyone mention that if there's a belly in the cap iron
i.e, the edges aren't in contact with the cutting iron,
and honing it like some folk do is not fixing things, then a good way to mate it to the flat iron (Sellers actually has a useful video on that, where he taps an iron flat)
Is to either use the corner of a hone, or easier again to get a short strip of abrasive not as wide as the cap iron and focus on the middle, easier to get it flat if it's in contact on each edge first.
Tom
Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)
Established Member
Yes. He is not interested in what others have to say. He preaches to his choir, and that is all that is important to him. This "test" simply demonstrates how little he understands about this area of plane tuning. He has done similar "tests" with bevel up planes, with inappropriate set up and inevitable failure ..... when something does not fit in with his own philosophy, he will find a way to discredit it. This characteristic of his is a great pity since he is in a position to influence many newbies. He is interested in that, to be sure, but with the closed mind of an autocrat.
Regards from Perth
Derek
planesleuth
Established Member
Well said ! Completely agree. Also applies to certain contributors in this thread and on this site. They need to be censored especially the ones that over post.... incredibly arrogant, boring and most of the time just plain wrong, just like the old stick Sellars. Such a crime they are, and he is, influencing a whole generation.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
I put the edge of my cap iron over a newly dressed Tormec stone and I also ground the back of the cutting iron flat. It's worth checking for flatness on the two irons before you begin, otherwise you'll never get them to match.
'Twas on my old wooden jack plane which cost a fiver, but I use daily and the base never gums up when I'm planing the resinous scots pine we have here. It's a great plane and warm on the hands when it's cold.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
Record with rosewood handles and a nickel plated lever cap iron thingy. You know, the shiny bit with Record on it.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
Just my opinion mind. You probably won't notice any difference when you come to use either
Jacob
Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
A bit severe!
The questions Paul has to answer come from novices - obviously, or he wouldn't get asked them. So he gives simple practical answers. People go away and find that things work. For instance his 3 stone simple freehand sharpening is spot on and dead easy. Nobody needs much more than that. In fact less will do; one oil stone if you do it a little and often enough.
In the meantime they've escaped having to work their way through the maze of hysterical half baked opinion and sheer alchemical madness which surrounds the subject, as we see in this thread!
They can always stick their nose in later, but best advised not to bother in my opinion!
https://paulsellers.com/2015/04/keep-sharpening-simple/PS it wasn't Sellers who influenced me to move away from the sharpening hysteria - I rediscovered trad sharpening on my own by chance and never looked back! I've still got a couple of honing jigs in a drawer somewhere but can honestly say I haven't used them for many years. They are useless and they make sharpening more difficult.
PPS and 1/32 to 1/8inch is fine for cap iron clearance. 1/32" a bit fine for easy stuff. Less than 1/32 and you might as well go straight to a scraper, because that's what you effectively have.
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Hi record Is a manufacturer like Stanley or Lie Nielsen. Bailey on the other hand isn’t a manufacturer but a design of plane made by most plane manufacturers.
If you are looking for a decent plane for reasonable money you can’t go far wrong with a Bailey plane by either Record or Stanley.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
Except you can buy a plane with the name Bailey cast on it, which is probably what he means.
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Not that I be planing pine often , but plenty of the stuff I see has knots.
That's a good excuse for me, to use it when needed.
It's knowledge that should be learned regardless if one uses it or not.
It's not difficult to do, the only skill is getting a nice tiny camber, and that's it.
If you don't need it, you can slide it away.
Have you ever tried dimensioning with a no.80?
I've done that a few times before I learned how to use the cap iron.
I used to write WFH on those examples that seemingly couldn't be planed...
Now I actively seek out those denser examples instead of avoiding them.
A scraper for this is absolute torture, and I never will scrape again if I don't need to.
I was getting reactions to the tropical timbers I was working before this,
but now that my shavings are unbroken and I'm not slamming into reversing grain causing tearout, planing is easy, and no need to sweat it with the scraper plane to get down to the bottom of the pits.
A smoother with cap set at 1/64" or a breath less from the edge (honed @50), will leave any scraper for dust, no comparison..
Effort and time, cleaner workshop and a superior chatoyancy than the scraper gives.
What's not to like?
Tom
Jameshow
Established Member
Jacob
Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
Tiny camber comes of its own accord if you do normal freehand sharpening. No skill required at all!
No. A bit of finishing yes
OK but it's not for beginners, or earners - getting a perfect finish from a plane alone, in difficult material, is a challenging target for plane enthusiasts, and good luck to them! I've fiddled about doing the same thing and yes it can be done.
"Chatoyancy"
There's a new word for me, had to look it up! But this is enthusiasts' territory.I might have a go at getting high chatoyancy and no tear out, with some knotty pine or pallet wood.
Come to think - getting a better finish from an 80 scraper might be worth investigating too, they are so easy to use
I agree with Trees. We have a veritas "No 80" which is a bit bigger than the real thing, and also the larger (112 is it?) scraper plane. Very handy, but the 51/2 which can be tuned up, is far better for dimensioning something like curly maple.
I have not noticed the wear on the cap iron when it's set very close. However the Dutch? guy's paper suggests it's there and can be seen along with the blade wear, which is mostly on the bevel side, opposite the cap iron. I made my flat cap iron by grinding off the little ridge of a LN chipbreaker. I don't know what these are made of, but seem harder than the usual mild steel. They are ground flat (except for the little ridge at the sharp end). Being blade like, it's really easy to camber the cap iron to match the blade, the tiny +15 deg hook setting the final angle and keeping out trapped shavings. I do sharpen both when performance falls off. Click on the link and have a read.
https://planetuning.infillplane.com/html/mechanics_of_chipbreakers.html
This sort of tuning caper is not necessary unless the stuff you are working is proving tricky with the cap iron set away from the edge. Anything over about 0.3mm will make little difference to the planing results. Grandad told me to get it as close as you can whilst still cutting if you're still getting tearout. This was about 1950, and he was well over 70, a life long 3rd generation joiner and cabinet maker. Alas I am still an amateur, but I do like to understand what's going on at the sharp edge, as it were.
If you grind on a wheel so the result is hollow due to the wheel curvature, you might try copying Jacob and sharpen by hand. Only front and back of the bevel will touch the stone which makes getting and keeping the angle easier. However I lack the degree of practice needed to do this on autopilot, so for me a guide is quicker and gives repeatable results.
I have not noticed the wear on the cap iron when it's set very close. However the Dutch? guy's paper suggests it's there and can be seen along with the blade wear, which is mostly on the bevel side, opposite the cap iron. I made my flat cap iron by grinding off the little ridge of a LN chipbreaker. I don't know what these are made of, but seem harder than the usual mild steel. They are ground flat (except for the little ridge at the sharp end). Being blade like, it's really easy to camber the cap iron to match the blade, the tiny +15 deg hook setting the final angle and keeping out trapped shavings. I do sharpen both when performance falls off. Click on the link and have a read.
https://planetuning.infillplane.com/html/mechanics_of_chipbreakers.html
This sort of tuning caper is not necessary unless the stuff you are working is proving tricky with the cap iron set away from the edge. Anything over about 0.3mm will make little difference to the planing results. Grandad told me to get it as close as you can whilst still cutting if you're still getting tearout. This was about 1950, and he was well over 70, a life long 3rd generation joiner and cabinet maker. Alas I am still an amateur, but I do like to understand what's going on at the sharp edge, as it were.
If you grind on a wheel so the result is hollow due to the wheel curvature, you might try copying Jacob and sharpen by hand. Only front and back of the bevel will touch the stone which makes getting and keeping the angle easier. However I lack the degree of practice needed to do this on autopilot, so for me a guide is quicker and gives repeatable results.
Jacob
Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
You just hold it at 30º for honing and a bit less for grinding. Or easier; move between them for a convex bevel.
Takes about 10 minutes to get good at it
Might need a bit of practice visualising 30º - it's a third of a right-angle, or half the corner of an equilateral triangle. Practice by drawing it with paper and pencil and measure with a protractor.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
Jacob
Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
Really? Which bit didn't you get? Would a drawing help?
PS not intending to sound sarcastic honestly! But is this why people think they need honing guides?
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scooby
Established Member
oh, here we go..
