Paul Sellers and Old v New Tools

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Even local charities are cottoning on to the price hikes though. One near me has an almost solidly rusted Record #4 in totally unusable condition in the window for £35 and a dodgy operation Mathieson 6" sweep brace for £30. Both need complete strip and recondition before being in usable condition. They also had a half set of H&Rs sat in the blazing sun for 4 days getting rather warped before moving them despite being told about it twice. One of the planes started to look like a banana before they moved them. Idiots if they had moved them when first told I would have bought them a couple of days later when I could have returned with my card.
 
Talking of jealousy, someone picked up a veritas wonder dog for 50p at the car boot today, if only I had been 30 secs faster.
 
or 200 pounds heavier lol

I had someone literally buy something that was in my hand, he was convincing me it wouldn't fit me (it would have) and he took it from me to show me and then paid the bloke and walked off the cheeky sod.
Ironically the item would have fit me (6'4) and the bloke that barely pushing 5ft! :ROFLMAO:
Still he saved me a quid, I didn't really need it, one of those bargains you buy for the sake of it, too many of those in the workshop and wardrobe already lol.
 
Arguable perhaps but hardly an "extreme" claim that Stanley 4 is better than a Lie Neilsen! A lot cheaper for a start! I've never paid more than £15 or soDefinitely better than the Veritas 4 which has no lever cap and only a norris style adjuster. "Retro" styles are all very well but the reason they became retro is that they were superseded by improved tools.
Definitely cheaper and lighter than the Lie Nielsen. No contest really, but don't let that stop you being a fashion victim!
PS I had a Clifton 4 once. Heavy, expensive, thick blade slow to sharpen, soft malleable steel body which scratched easily. Sold it.
Also had the Stanley SW 4 which had non of these faults and was very well made, except for being heavy and having retro adjusters - the same mistake as the Veritas design. They really missed a chance there by being followers of fashion


Jacob

I don’t think I’d ever be classed as a follower of fashion be it tools or clothes 😄


I didn’t say that his claim that the Stanley is superior to a Lie Nielsen is extreme.
That comment was meant that in general that’s what he does…make extreme claims of either uniqueness or about one tool being superior to another.
Even your own comments vis a vis Stanley and Lie Nielsen are not ones which show that one plane is superior over the other.
Cheaper and lighter is not superior and neither is heavy and expensive .

The question should be couched in different terms.
Which is better for a particular job maybe ?
Or which do I as an individual prefer ?
Paul Sellers makes his own preferences into a contest about superior or inferior and that he is always right, instead of just saying thats what he prefers.
As much as I like him generally, he exhibits a “soft arrogance”.
Nothing wrong in making claims to prefer one tool over another just be honest about and don’t make into an “either/or “ argument .

My initial thread post was written out of irritation and maybe it could have been worded differently but my point I think still stands.
I knew the post would irritate some and be answered sensibly by others which is fine as that’s what you get when you make a post that divides opinion.
You of all people will understand that if you recall your own sharpening posts .

You found the Clifton No4 blade difficult to sharpen…really ?
Maybe that’s because you didn’t use the right sharpening technique 😈😉
 
...

You found the Clifton No4 blade difficult to sharpen…really ?
Maybe that’s because you didn’t use the right sharpening technique 😈😉
O1 steel and a bit thicker. Just a little longer to sharpen!
I think nearly all my Records and Stanleys have old laminated blades now, except one is new Japanese "smoothcut" laminated. They are the best without a doubt. Hope that is not an extreme statement!
 
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I should've been more clear about selling an ideal. I didn't mean that as a positive thing. He's selling escapism and his message has lacked substance from the start, but he's obviously selling something people want (if I were going to choose to spend $700 on a sellers course or an LN plane and perhaps supplement with 4 good clean disston saws, I wouldn't be registering for the course).

The idea that Paul isn't "beholden to tool companies" is overpeddled - that's not how he makes his money. If we all got an accurate accounting (from what I gather) of what he did, it would look like "got a job at a museum, then went from there to teaching students - or perhaps both at once - almost 40 years ago and then saw the power of online media at some point"

I tried to find his portfolio by googling it:

Has anyone seen a portfolio of stuff paul has made by himself? When I googled that, I got this:
https://paulsellers.com/2015/05/working-for-yourself/
This is really fantasy stuff. Full of "could" stuff, along with a comment at the bottom that once you're your "own boss, you can just extend deadlines further and further if it feels like pressure" and the comment that "I won't let anyone tell me I couldn't make a living making furniture".

Well, Paul, you probably couldn't. The finest maker I ever met charged a shop rate of about $50 an hour to do exceedingly fine work that almost nobody else could do. He didn't make furniture. Anyone I can think of who made more became a "company owner", which isn't nearly as pleasant as working by yourself.

This kind of thing is a lot like the investment guru who gives seminars and talks (paul's page says he'll come for a fee and give talks, i'm sure he's already got it all worked out in terms of puffing up a group), and who tells you just how much success you could have if you keep taking their classes and use their strategy. The only thing missing is the fact that they're not employing the strategy, they're seeking out other people to do it. I guess they're all altruistic. The reality is they're definitely not going to coach you about how they really make money - Paul doesn't teach you how he makes his living because it wouldn't be great for pitching how he makes his living (finding beginners), and you might do it.

Here's what I see - first, paul learned as a Joiner (not a cabinetmaker). Then, he learned that teaching people is preferable. Inevitably (my opinion), you'll find people teaching things when they tire of the making, not because they just have the "gift to teach, but are a world class maker, and it's such a tough decision". And not sure if he does in person classes at this point, but the magic of the internet probably makes selling memberships on sites more profitable and easier to manage than coordinating in person classes (e.g., dealing with people who have a relative who gets sick and want a refund, weather issues, ...ahem...covid restrictions). Giving talks is probably pretty profitable, too, if you can be booked to give a talk that you've already given other times.

long story short, if you want to know what's what with tools, find someone who does really fine work, and see what they think. Most of them will have a tool obsession and some won't, but not many will have strong opinions on what you must have because they'll be conveying that you need to have something that you want to make finely, and then the fact that you have to do all of the bits of it finely - not just what feels good.

Paul would have less trouble figuring out how to sharpen a clifton blade easily than he would providing a list of career woodworkers that he's taught.
 
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Jacob
You found the Clifton No4 blade difficult to sharpen…really ?
Maybe that’s because you didn’t use the right sharpening technique 😈😉

Yes. It's because unlike 99% of people he'd rather waste time regularly with an oilstone than take two minutes occasionally on a grindstone, then tells others it's a better way of doing it.
Ftfy.:LOL:
 
If he was in the USAF 80 years ago, he’d be the one laying armouring over the wingtips of the aircraft.

Old tools being better than news ones comes up about once a week here, has done for the last decade or so, it’s survivorship bias coupled with an inability to account for inflation.

My old Stanley planes have new blades, and replaced handles, they don’t look perfect but they work fine. My LN tools are 80 years younger and I bet they will be in a much better condition when they are 100, because they were made better to start with, but they did cost somewhat more even accounting for inflation.

Delia Smith once caused a run on omelette pans, you can find them for free everywhere now.
I’m looking forward to the tsunami of quality 2nd hand router planes then :). I could do with another ( I have a nice modern veritas one)
 
Yes. It's because unlike 99% of people he'd rather waste time regularly with an oilstone than take two minutes occasionally on a grindstone, then tells others it's a better way of doing it.
Ftfy.:LOL:

Even a crystolon stone will grind those blades reasonably well - even though the method is subpar (rounding everything over) unless the primary is drawn out very long (which itself isn't very pleasant by hand).

The eye isn't on the ball of making nice things though with any of this, but paul doesn't need people (nor does jacob) to have their eye on that ball - it distracts from the platitudes.

The platitudes allow for suspension in a state of "problem identification" without progressing to problem solving. Sharpening and flattening clifton's blades isn't difficult. It may be if one pretends that only the method used for other blades in other proportions can ever work in the first place.
 
Here's an interesting comparison. Take a look at Lonnie Bird's student gallery vs. Paul's.

https://www.lonniebird.com/furniture-gallery-student-work/
When I mentioned getting an LN 62 and finding it pleasant, but not very productive vs. a plane with a cap iron (again, an issue only for someone doing all or most of their work with planes), someone pointed me to Lonnie as an instructor who required purchase of an LN 62 at the time.

Why? Because he's probably not interested in telling people how to set up old planes.

I'm a great fan of George Wilson (not a secret) and talk to him often. It's uncommon for George to ever talk about good tools one vs. another or good sharpening methods, one vs. another. George can tell you at length what he believes makes for good voicing in a guitar or violin, he can tell you what makes a good harpsichord, he can tell you what design should be in jewelry dies, what the key issues are in restoring a lathe, etc.

I was talking to him last night as he's now aware that I like making chisels. I said something about often being requested to make london pattern handles because they're interesting visually (they are, they're lovely looking in boxwood), but any better functionally and perhaps slightly less comfortable than tapered and turned handles. He agreed. When I said they're a little bit of a pain to make with limited tooling because you have to check more bits on them (they must be symmetrical on the facets with the blank placed dead centered in a lathe, he flatly said "oh, I use a mill and a metal lathe to make them" and described some kind of self setting bit on his lathe that will take the chunk that comes off the mill and place it dead center on the lathe.

Should I convince him that making them by hand with old tools is better? I'll bet he could make 4 in the time it takes me to make one, and more importantly, is eye for design would make his look better than mine, too, even if they were equally finished.
 
Yes. It's because unlike 99% of people he'd rather waste time regularly with an oilstone than take two minutes occasionally on a grindstone, then tells others it's a better way of doing it.
Ftfy.:LOL:
Seems to worry you Phil.
I find it more pleasant, quieter, easier and quicker not to bother with power grindstone - unless the thing is really bad and needs reshaping in which case I'd use the 12" disc sander on my lathe. It's much better than a Pro edge which I had briefly and sold on.
Oil stones: If a burr doesn't come up quickly I might go down a grit or two. But a little and often usually means just using the two finest, or one if its a narrow chisel.
I admit it's taken some time to get a simple routine sorted.
The biggest handicap to speed is the honing jig and I reckon it causes most of the problems. I haven't touched one in 15 years or so but didn't use them much anyway.
I bought a used Norton "0" combi some time back which was untouched on the fine side but distinctly hollowed on the coarse. Who would do that? Found the answer when I needed to sharpen my little joiner's axe - freehand again, energetic but very quick and neat.
The main thing about freehand is putting a lot of energy into it - doing it fast over the whole surface of the stone.
I recently discovered an interesting detail - if I do a figure of 8 (well just a spiral squiggle up and down) it tends to push the oil and swarf off the sides of the stone. It also pushes off those annoying bits of wire edge or sawdust which float about up and down the stone and are difficult to shift. Should have noticed this 50 years ago!
PS and the hollow in the coarse stone is ideal for thick old woodies - grind like an axe then hone just the edge on a finer stone, all
PPS just noticed how much some people find Paul Sellers annoying - he must be doing something right! :ROFLMAO:
 
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Weird.
If you don't like the man, don't watch him.
I can't stand Rob Cosman. So I don't watch him.

You probably don't have to watch Cosman to be reminded of him. You also don't have to watch Sellers to be reminded of his claims.

I'd bet student outcomes from the two of them are probably similar, and Bird's student pool is smaller (and probably wealthier).

Most of us on this thread wouldn't be apprised of paul's claims about old planes, and most of the hackles are raised about cosman when someone (innocently) comes along asking for opinions about his methods or where to get the wares.

I see both guys as the same (both Cosman and Sellers). Just like politics, any ardent fan of either will be offended by that comment.
 
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