Out wit h the new and in with the old

[D_W]

Never saw a record 044c for sale in the united states, and never thought much about it until you guys mentioned it here as being a pittance compared to LV's fabulous small plow plane (a plane I've never had the reported "problems" with, whatever they were).

But thanks to the new global shipping program (which makes for ridiculously high shipping, but does open the door to acquire things that wouldn't have been offered to US buyers), I nailed down a 044c with 10 irons (unused) in metric and imperial sizes for 67 quid - no deal in the UK, I'm sure, but compared to our options in the US, quite a steal.

So out goes this:

And in comes this:

I've had a chance to use it a couple of times already, and it works a treat. Not quite as precisely made as the LV plane, but I am not in the crowd that demands that kind of thing - it is plenty well made and plenty accurate.

Certainly can't fault the LV plane for anything, but there is something that appeals more to me about the 044C vs. a new plane.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Now I know you are bonkers, Dave

Why replace the Small Plow when you say you are happy with it? And then do so with a lesser plane?

Stark, staring bonkers :lol:

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Trafalgar]

If that vintage has the nylon bushings be very careful not to over-tighten the screws. You'll also want to use less side pressure on the fence than you may be used to using with other planes. The fence can creep on you with this model. I have one as well.

 

[bugbear]

I think most of us Brits (and USA-ians in a position to choose) prefer the #044 over the later #044c with its rather odd handle.

BugBear

 

[D_W]

If that vintage has the nylon bushings be very careful not to over-tighten the screws. You'll also want to use less side pressure on the fence than you may be used to using with other planes. The fence can creep on you with this model. I have one as well.

Charlie - are the nylon bushings in the fence or body? This one is all metal everywhere with the possible exception of the handle and the wooden runner on the fence.

 

[D_W]

Now I know you are bonkers, Dave

Why replace the Small Plow when you say you are happy with it? And then do so with a lesser plane?

Stark, staring bonkers :lol:

Regards from Perth

Derek

Seemed like the right thing to do!

If I have something larger, like wasting material on a moulding or something of the like, I have a larger wooden plow, but it cannot work quite close enough to the edge of boards for drawer grooving sometimes. an extravagance, in general, to have the large wooden plow and this, I guess.

 

[Trafalgar]

If that vintage has the nylon bushings be very careful not to over-tighten the screws. You'll also want to use less side pressure on the fence than you may be used to using with other planes. The fence can creep on you with this model. I have one as well.

Charlie - are the nylon bushings in the fence or body? This one is all metal everywhere with the possible exception of the handle and the wooden runner on the fence.

On the depth skate... if yours doesn't have it, this is good (unless it's in the design but missing). While the fence arms have a regular screws they are somewhat prone to moving if you use too much side pressure, at least mine is.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

an extravagance, in general, to have the large wooden plow and this, I guess.

Dave, Dave .. Dave ..

You need to book an appointment with me

After selling the Small Plow, even if you get 80% of the cost price, and then the cost of buying the Record ... It may, in fact be cheaper to sell the Record and keep the Small Plow!

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

I think I bought the small plow on introductory price - I can't remember what it was. I suspect that the difference between what I paid for the record and what the plow plane nets will be about $60. I like the irons that come with the record better so far, though as small as the small plow irons are, they sharpen easily with one hand on an oilstone, regardless of what they're made of.

I'm running out of modern tools, so there won't be too many more episodes like this!

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

The upcoming Brown auction, in Harrisburg, PA, late October, has a Marples 44 listed (Lot B-175). Auction price range give is $100 to $200, and includes original box.

I don't believe I will give up my LV!

 

[D_W]

From what I've seen, the US is a bad place to buy English tools now that ebay will pack and ship things that used to be shipped UK only.

I have no idea what brown or MJD take, but it may be a good place to *sell* the English tools!

So far, I like the blade retention and adjustment better in the 044c than the lever cappy type in the small plow and some other types. What I haven't confirmed is that it will hold the 1/8th size iron - I hope it does! I recall reading that some planes that side grip will not do the narrowest iron, and years ago I found that to be the case with a now long-gone stanley 50. I don't remember all of the details of the stanley 50, except being happy to see it (and the 45s and 55) go out in a postal service box. I do recall the 50 that I had (which was an older one) was not very good at keeping irons from changing depth on their own -reason enough to get rid of it.

Those planes also taught me how bad of an idea it is to use a plow plane as a beader if anything else (even a scratch beader) is available. I still don't know what the fascination is with beading with a plow plane, and have no clue why LV added that feature.

 

[D_W]

If that vintage has the nylon bushings be very careful not to over-tighten the screws. You'll also want to use less side pressure on the fence than you may be used to using with other planes. The fence can creep on you with this model. I have one as well.

Charlie - are the nylon bushings in the fence or body? This one is all metal everywhere with the possible exception of the handle and the wooden runner on the fence.

On the depth skate... if yours doesn't have it, this is good (unless it's in the design but missing). While the fence arms have a regular screws they are somewhat prone to moving if you use too much side pressure, at least mine is.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll take the depth stop apart and look in, but there may be nylon it it - it has sort of a friction fit feel. re: the rods moving, I'll keep my eye out. I wonder if there would be any reason not to scuff the rods a little bit? Not something i'll do unless there's a reason for it.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

...
So far, I like the blade retention and adjustment better in the 044c than the lever cappy type in the small plow and some other types. ........
.....Those planes also taught me how bad of an idea it is to use a plow plane as a beader if anything else (even a scratch beader) is available. I still don't know what the fascination is with beading with a plow plane, and have no clue why LV added that feature.

Hi David

I am not sure whether the #044c is different from the #044, but the latter (and the #043) uses a loose shoe as a lever cap. This often falls out and is lost. It is a poor design. I hope the #044c is different. The irony is that I think the #044c was the inspiration for the Small Plow.

These features were compared when I reviewed the Small Plow nearly a decade ago (comparing it with the #044 and #043) ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... Plane.html

With regard the beading option, I am inclined to agree with you. I never had much success beading hardwood with the Stanley #45. I am curious, nonetheless, and have had the upgrade done. I am now waiting for a few beading blades I ordered. Will share the results later.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[custard]

Agree, beading with a plough plane isn't really practical unless the workpiece is especially mild and well behaved.

I was making Oak drawer slips today with a wooden beading plane from Philly Planes. It's 55 degree pitch and with a slightly larger quirk that means the bead won't close up when sluiced with hot water while cleaning up the glue squeeze out.

Start with a wide board of quarter sawn 13mm Oak. Work a 4mm x 4mm groove in both edges. Work a bead in both edges. Rip off the two drawer slips. Clean up the sawn edges. Repeat.

If you've measured right there should be just enough left at the end for the muntin!

It takes about 8 or 10 passes with the Philly Plane beader to cut the moulding, about a minute to do both edges. No tear out, minimal clean up. You're right, a scratch stock could do the job perfectly well, but it would be quite a bit slower and depending on the design of the scratch stock there may be problems securing the workpiece so there's an overhanging edge for the fence.

I keep thinking about getting one of Philly's Small Plough Planes to work the drawer slip grooves, it'd probably be faster than setting up the router table, but it's not cheap for what would be a one job dedicated tool.

 

[D_W]

...
So far, I like the blade retention and adjustment better in the 044c than the lever cappy type in the small plow and some other types. ........
.....Those planes also taught me how bad of an idea it is to use a plow plane as a beader if anything else (even a scratch beader) is available. I still don't know what the fascination is with beading with a plow plane, and have no clue why LV added that feature.

Hi David

I am not sure whether the #044c is different from the #044, but the latter (and the #043) uses a loose shoe as a lever cap. This often falls out and is lost. It is a poor design. I hope the #044c is different. The irony is that I think the #044c was the inspiration for the Small Plow.

These features were compared when I reviewed the Small Plow nearly a decade ago (comparing it with the #044 and #043) ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... Plane.html

With regard the beading option, I am inclined to agree with you. I never had much success beading hardwood with the Stanley #45. I am curious, nonetheless, and have had the upgrade done. I am now waiting for a few beading blades I ordered. Will share the results later.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I shouldn't have been quite so harsh when mentioning the beading. Veritas may have just been following the lead of Stanley and others who had done it, and I'm sure they get requests. I agree with custard about the wood - if you could be so lucky to have something all downhill.

One of the first planes of this style that I ever used was a stanley 55. I remember jake darvall posting scads of work goofing around with stanley 55s, and he warned me not to buy one. I didn't understand that much about what makes a plane plane well at the time, and I managed to use the 55 to do some pine floor trim. It had roundover and other unbalanced irons in it and it was OK in the best of woods if you kept the shaving thin.

I've gotten a nice set of griffiths beads from the UK after having ever only found two good straight clean small beads locally. And for a price that that anyone on the ground in the UK would be horrified at, but I am pleased with them delay my want to make a few a little longer (which is good, the wife has other requests).

They work so well when they're fresh and straight that I wish I'd have bought them sooner, as I make plain furniture and a couple of simple mouldings beaded items is just fine until or unless I run out P&V for making planes.

 

[D_W]

Agree, beading with a plough plane isn't really practical unless the workpiece is especially mild and well behaved.

I was making Oak drawer slips today with a wooden beading plane from Philly Planes. It's 55 degree pitch and with a slightly larger quirk that means the bead won't close up when sluiced with hot water while cleaning up the glue squeeze out.

Start with a wide board of quarter sawn 13mm Oak. Work a 4mm x 4mm groove in both edges. Work a bead in both edges. Rip off the two drawer slips. Clean up the sawn edges. Repeat.



If you've measured right there should be just enough left at the end for the muntin!



It takes about 8 or 10 passes with the Philly Plane beader to cut the moulding, about a minute to do both edges. No tear out, minimal clean up. You're right, a scratch stock could do the job perfectly well, but it would be quite a bit slower and depending on the design of the scratch stock there may be problems securing the workpiece so there's an overhanging edge for the fence.

I keep thinking about getting one of Philly's Small Plough Planes to work the drawer slip grooves, it'd probably be faster than setting up the router table, but it's not cheap for what would be a one job dedicated tool.

I'm sure you could make that style of plane pretty easily. The small style that roubo (I think it was roubo) had in a picture where the skate is wooden and almost full width is easily made by anyone who can sharpen an iron, and works faster, better and cleaner than any metal plane, though. You can make one or five out of an offcut in an afternoon, a little more time than that if you want a moving fillister style fence, but nonetheless, they work fabulously.

 

[D_W]

Hi David

I am not sure whether the #044c is different from the #044, but the latter (and the #043) uses a loose shoe as a lever cap. This often falls out and is lost. It is a poor design. I hope the #044c is different. The irony is that I think the #044c was the inspiration for the Small Plow.

I'd suspect that someone at LV got a hold of an 044c, too, and was inspired by it. It is a little bit bigger than the small plow, and the holding mechanism is different, but it feels very little different in use.

It has a side gripping method of holding an iron that is backed up by a groove for the adjuster. As with all types that I'm aware of, the adjustment requires loosening the grip slightly, but it's got a great lock on the iron when it's tightened and without having to manhandle it. Very intuitive.

I am a sucker for an iron that sharpens well on a washita at this point, too, but anything half inch or so wide sharpens easily on a washita - even HSS. The irons have mill marks in them (finished acceptably, but of course not to the same standard as LV in terms of polish and perfection). Given the resident fast cutting cretan, preparation of the quarter inch iron from new was about 45 seconds.

it beats the 50 that I had long ago by miles. If I had infinite space, I probably would've gotten the record, too, and kept both, but the reality for me is that in the past, that leads to a plane that rusts. The same thing happened to my left veritas skew plane, and then after getting a good woody plane this year, the next time I got out the right plane, it had light rust on it. Rust is grounds for expulsion, unless I made the plane (my infills come up with a glaze or two, sometimes), but I can't part with them because they literally cost more in materials than I could get for them.

 

[RogerP]

Far better to avoid eBay and their "global shipping program" just buy from a UK seller who will post worldwide without the GSP nonsense.

As a seller I know it’s very little more trouble to send abroad than within the UK. Just one small form to fill in (30 seconds) and stick it, an address label, return address label and an Air Mail sticker on the box and take it to the local PO. Same as any other mail.

I'd never dream lumbering my buyers with GSP when I can send stuff to them for less and quicker.

 

[D_W]

Far better to avoid eBay and their "global shipping program" just buy from a UK seller who will post worldwide without the GSP nonsense.

As a seller I know it’s very little more trouble to send abroad than within the UK. Just one small form to fill in (30 seconds) and stick it, an address label, return address label and an Air Mail sticker on the box and take it to the local PO. Same as any other mail.

I'd never dream lumbering my buyers with GSP when I can send stuff to them for less and quicker.

Unfortunately, not everyone else over there agrees. In general, signed-for postage over a small amount sucks in price for us. I believe the shipping was still about 25 pounds, which is quite a bit, but it probably would've been 20 without GSP, and I'd have lost the ability to buy from the seller.

I believe there is a listing for the same plane with no additional irons here in the states for about 6 times what the UK seller wanted. I don't love the program, but in this case, I think it worked out in my favor.

I unload my turnover on ebay, and I get quite a lot of angry emails from customers who buy GSP (it's a bigger pain for me because I can't use my normal drop off point with international packages, and the customs hullaballoo isn't worth $5 to me extra that a customer might spend if they weren't spending it on GSP), at any rate, I get angry messages or mails or whatever from people who don't like the charges but buy, anyway. Our international shipping options are also generally crappy if something is heavier than first class mail.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I may have solved the "problem" of using a plough plane (the Veritas Small Plow) as a beading plane. I managed a little time only in the workshop to try this out. Of course, this may be an obvious solution, but I have not heard of another trying it out.

The concern is that a plough plane has no mouth to control tearout. The Stanley #45 has a poor reputation (my experience as well) with beading unless the grain is very straight. A similar poor performance was expected from the Small Plow conversion.

I had my Small Plow converted recently, largely out of curiosity. The beading blades arrived today. I did try the 3/8" blade on a small scrap of Makore, and it produced an excellent result.

For the experiment I chose to use a Stanley #45 beading blade of the same size. The plan was to add a 15 degree backbevel, which would create a 60 degree cutting angle. My reasoning was that, at this angle, a mouth is unnecessary to prevent tearout.

To test the set up, I turned the section of Makore around and planed into the steep grain. The result was successful - not as smooth a finish as with the grain, but no tearout. Planing with the grain at 60 degrees created a finish as smooth as the non-backbeveled blade.

Curlier shavings with the backbevelled blade.

Planed into the grain.

I tried a few other boards (into the grain of Jarrah and Pine) with similar results. I need to do more trials here before I can say that this is a reliable alternate method for beading.

Try it for yourself.

Regards from Perth

Derek