Order of work in assembling n veneering a chest of drawers?

[Dovetaildave]

Its a Biggie, biggest I've ever made!... L 1220 x H 1220 x D 500. seven graduated drawers.

Wife wants it "out of my way" as space is tight in this one bed flat, so a bit of a rush as well :roll: .

Drawers are assembled and stored outside in communal stairwell(not popular with the council). Top base, sides and back in the bedroom. work surface is the kitchen table for measuring and fitting runners if still flat packed and veneering interior.

Will have to do all the work in the bedroom as it will be to large/heavy to move around

I can't fit the steel runners to the sides till I can decide how it's to be veneered

Generally is seems to be;
Option A the Joints have to assembled, then exterior veneered and finally attach draw runners.
Option B veneered the interior,attach draw runners, joint, veneer outside.

Materials used;
Carcass Ply18mm, birch faced top and base.
Drawers with overlay fronts 12mm ply, cheaper constructional grade.
Steel runners, heavy duty 40 KG, 500mm length.

Jointing;
The Carcass is dovetailed and back is 12mm ply rebated and screwed. I have dry assembled it, now its flat packed.

I have experience in;
Scotch/hammer and have used cascamite (UF) on smaller bedside cabinets that I could clamp/press/heavy weight.

I can only veneer the exterior after it has been joined and back is screwed on, thus making the interior difficult to access or work on horizontally.

I will use;
Birdseye maple (three/four leaves bookmatched).
Indian rosewood crossbanding and edging.
Polish with mylands transparent and special pale shellac.

Questions;
1, Can I get away with hammer veneering just the outside (18mm ply), avoiding contra/balance veneering if the item is glued and back screwed together making it a little more stable?

2, If I change to contact adhesive can I veneer just the outside? if so any advice on the method when taped and book matched?

3, If I have to hammer/contra veneer the insides, can I wait a day before assembling the precut dovetails and veneering the exterior or will I end up with four very large and expensive pringles? Must I do interior veneering then assemble it, then bookmatch the exterior all in one day :? ?

4, Has anyone used two methods of veneering of both faces of a ply sheet, could that be an option?

5, Most importantly; Anything I haven't asked but will encounter as I rush at this before school starts back again

Thanks,
Dave

Time is against me guys....I have to start on Sunday morning or begin divorce proceedings.

 

[carlb40]

I can give you the number of a good divorce lawyer :mrgreen:

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

This is a tricky one, and no mistake. Using hide glue in the bedroom might provoke most protestation from your misses, for a start, but I fear is probably the only way. Has your carcass got any rails joining the sides at the front, I.e. between each drawer? If this is the case, I would assemble the thing, fix in the drawer runners to act as side braces and then hammer veneer the out sides. You cannot counter veneer two sides as separate procedures as most df the distortion occurs during the initial drying out period, so counter veneering needs to be done during this window. It is possible to veneer one side of a panel only and then assemble, ( there is a trick to this) but since you need to assemble the carcass before veneering, this is not an option. You will not successfully weight the veneer down unless you have a press of some sort, so cascamite is out, that would need many hours in the press till the glue cures. If there are no riails holding the front sides together, then I suggest you fix a slave piece of plywood at the front so when the back is glued and screwed on, you have an enclosed box. Then hammer veneer the sides etc. If you can do one side at a time, it would be an advantage ( one a day) Then I would veneer one side, then lay it on a flat surface covered with several layers of newspaper (you might need to have the top layer as plain paper to avoid newsprint bleeding through) the newspaper absorbs the moisture outwards, rather than letting the substrate absorb it. It is the subsequent drying of the substrate which causes the warping. Once you have completed the veneering and the carcass has fully dried out, you can remove the slave and things should remain flat.

Hope this helps,

Mike.

 

[Dovetaildave]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the advice.

I have assembled Dry) and am now in the process of screwing a MDF stretcher bracing the sides at the front, between drawers 4&5.

Once the draws run correctly, i'll be in position to remove steel runners, veneer inside, assemble/glue dovetails , re-fit stretcher and veneer outside, wait few days (avoid rust?)and re-fit steel runners lining up with edge marks front n back.

Flipping it over to sit on paper will be tricky but should manage it, I'll run down the local chippy and scrounge some paper from them, thanks for the tip.

A general question;
When you bookmatch 4' lengths do you glue down both overlapped and use a knife, or do you glue one side and use a knife/saw, then glue remanider?

thanks in advance,

Dave

 

[János]

Hello,

Keeping the symmetry of veneered panels is a wise concept. But you could veneer one side without problems in many cases. One such case is the use of thick multi-ply plywood as a substrate: O,6 mm thick veneers will not warp a 500 mm wide, 18 mm thick core. Traditional hammer veneering is not a really good technique, as it introduces lots of moisture/water into the substrate, and even more into the veneer itself. As the veneer dries out, it shrinks a lot, and causes the cupping of the substrate. But thick plywood is rigid enough to withstand the bending forces. In most cases the veneer yields: it develops cracks over time.
As an alternative of hot hide/bone glue, you could use PVAc for hammer veneering, as this kind of adhesive is thermoplastic, so you could reactivate it with the application of heat. A household flat-iron and a seam roller are the tools needed to do the job. And it is not as smelly as hide glue.

You might find detailed descriptions in woodworking magazines, like FWW.

Contact adhesives are not suitable for quality woodworking projects, and are the worst choice for veneering: prone to creep, sensitive to solvents in finishes, and ageing badly.

Have a nice day,

János

 

[woodbrains]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the advice.

I have assembled Dry) and am now in the process of screwing a MDF stretcher bracing the sides at the front, between drawers 4&5.

Once the draws run correctly, i'll be in position to remove steel runners, veneer inside, assemble/glue dovetails , re-fit stretcher and veneer outside, wait few days (avoid rust?)and re-fit steel runners lining up with edge marks front n back.

Flipping it over to sit on paper will be tricky but should manage it, I'll run down the local chippy and scrounge some paper from them, thanks for the tip.

A general question;
When you bookmatch 4' lengths do you glue down both overlapped and use a knife, or do you glue one side and use a knife/saw, then glue remanider?

thanks in advance,

Dave

Hello,

My idea about screwing a slave to the front opening was to negate the need for veneering on the inside. Once the outside was veneered and fully dry, the tendency for the ply to warp will have gone. I dont know if I was clear about that. If you do decide to veneer the inside. The newspaper trick will not be necessary, if you can veneer the outside shortly after the inside, as the counter veneering will stop the warping. However, if you have work to do on the outside (which was my understanding) and you let the inside veneer dry before tou have time to veneer the outside, then this will not work as a counter veneer, so there is little point in doing it, unless you really want to cover the inside with something other than the birch veneer it already has. It is not impossible to veneer the inside of the case, but I would think difficult as everything would have to be cut to the exact size before you start and placement will have to be precise. But then again, a few hairline gaps on the inside won't make a whole lot of difference. You may then want to use the newspaper trick when veneering the out side.

Janos is correct in that you could use pva instead of hide glue, but it would not be my preference. Give it a try though on some scrap, if the smell of the hide glue is prohibitive. My experience with pva is that it is it is very easy for escaping steam to cause cracks as it escapes through the veneer and I think it is not possible to do overlaps like you can with hide glue as this requires you to lift the veneer at the edges to remove the waste and then re apply. The pva here either will not let you lift the veneer easily, or will not restick afterwards. If you can shoot the veneer edges and tape the joints, so you can do the veneering as a whole sheet, this might work, but I suspect you do not want to have to do this, hence your consideration of hide glue in the first place.

Sorry if you know this already, but do not forget to spritz the veneer's top face with clean water before you start, then when the veneer is placed on the glued substrate, it will not curl up like wall paper ( the initial dampening pre-curls it)
Spread hide glue evenly over substrate, let it chill, dampen veneer while waiting for this. When glue is no longer spreadable, a bit like jelly, the glue has chilled. Lay one veneer , iron and hammer down, then lay the next piece with a small overlap, iron and hammer down. Use a Stanley knife and straight edge to cut through both veneers at the join, lift the top veneer slightly, remove the waste veneer from underneath, lay the lifted edge back and iron and hammer down. Continue with as many leaves needed to fill the board.

I hope this helps, incidentally, chip shop paper is not always absorbent, it might not work, use their newspaper, but if their unprinted paper is that very crisp type, I might try something else, or at least do an absorbency test.

Contact adhesive is poor in these instances, avoid.


Mike.

 

[GazPal]

I'd go the PVA route, using one with a reasonably long open time, as it allows the timber to ebb and flow with seasonal humidity changes and lessens the risk of flaws developing later in your furniture's life and you'll be able to carry out your bookmatching before it grabs. Be sure to clamp the veneer and plywood base securely flat and you can apply the veneer to a single side. With ply of the thickness you're using, plus if the unit is assembled prior to veneering, you shouldn't have much - if any - trouble with distortion.

Waxed paper, greaseproof paper works extremely well in cases where you wish to avoid unnecessary adhesion between caul and veneer.

Both suggested methods are perfectly fine, but - if in doubt - I'd pursue Janos suggestions and you'll not go far wrong.

 

[Dovetaildave]

One such case is the use of thick multi-ply plywood as a substrate: O,6 mm thick veneers will not warp a 500 mm wide, 18 mm thick core.

Hi Janos, Ahhh thats good to know

you could use PVAc for hammer veneering, as this kind of adhesive is thermoplastic, so you could reactivate it with the application of heat.

Janos , Have you tried Crossbanding using PVA? Birdseye maple, bookmatched having to remove waste, reglue, crossbanding, removing maple waste and gluing Rosewood, would the rosewood creep away over time?



Thanks again Mike....

My idea about screwing a slave to the front opening was to negate the need for veneering on the inside. Once the outside was veneered and fully dry, the tendency for the ply to warp will have gone.

Music to my ears, I'll avoid doing inside for just the reasons you state....good news !

I havnt made a jig for shooting edges, even tho I did buy a No8 and some 145's now fitted to bench to allow me to do so....another job still waiting.

If you were to bookmatch 4' lengths of birdseye maple would you use a veneersaw or a knife with your straightedge?

My local chippy has just the right paper, I have re used before, albeit on smaller projects...boxes.


Gazpal......

I'd go the PVA route, using one with a reasonably long open time, as it allows the timber to ebb and flow with seasonal humidity changes and lessens the risk of flaws developing later in your furniture's life and you'll be able to carry out your bookmatching before it grabs. Be sure to clamp the veneer and plywood base securely flat and you can apply the veneer to a single side. With ply of the thickness you're using, plus if the unit is assembled prior to veneering, you shouldn't have much - if any - trouble with distortion.

I totally agree with both of you ..... particularly the above method, well described and feasible for those who don't want to go the scotch glue method, sound advice.


One of my reasons for attempting the large scotch glue and subsequent French polishing is to re learn, expand on skills I once (nearly) had and have since lost due to teaching secondary school, D&T departments are now merging with Art and in many cases schools don't want D&T teachers.....,.So hedging my bets and trying to prepare for the worst case scenario.

I am really impressed with the quality of help you given me,I'm now confident to take it on, I've got one more drawer to adjust and I'm ready to get "scotched". I may wait for the general temperature to rise before beginning the large carcass veneering.

Gentlemen thanks you for your sound , informative and methodically descriptive advice, that I'm sure will be used by others as reference well as myself. Excellent and thanks again photos to follow.......... :wink:

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Use a knife against your straight edge, if you are hammer veneering and joining as you go, the thickness of the saw kerf of a veneer saw will leave gaps. I forgot to mention, when you lift the veneer at the join, to remove the waste, you may want to brush some more hide glue there, in case the glue will not re tack again with the iron. Another reason why I do not use pva in these instances.

Mike.

 

[János]

Hello,

Hand-laying veneers is too complex a subject to sum up in a few sentences. But there are many good descriptions of the processes and techniques involved, in handbooks and magazines. Hammer veneering with hot hide glue was described in Joyce's Encyclopedia of Furniture Making (starting with page 294 in my edition), and different techniques of hand veneering with hide glue and PVAc adhesive were described in detail in FWW magazine no61, no87, no108, no114, and in many other places. In my experience a heavy inox steel or brass seam roller is the best tool to press the veneer into place untill the PVAc adhesive grabs. Highly figured veneers, especially burls and burrs have a tendency to form blisters if you not press them hard.

In fact, I prefer hide glue, but bonds made with it are very sensitive to heat, alcohol, moisture and dry climate (air conditioning, central heating), so PVAc is much more "modern-world-proof".

Best wishes,

János

 

[GazPal]

Precisely as Mike and Janos have already mentioned, this is a pretty complex process to try and cover within a few sentences. Feedback on every detail would be quite a protracted process, whereas other information resources would tend to prove more beneficial to you and your project.