One-jab efficacy questions

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They can't even isolate covid let alone a variant. These variants are not significantly different either
My understanding is that the uk variant was 70% more transmissible, hence spread far more rapidly. The “significance“ of that is subjective.

Not sure what “They can't even isolate covid let alone a variant” means. Are you saying that variants cannot be identified. Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean by “isolate” and the significance of not being able to do it.
 
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A few thoughts as there seem to be too many polarised views:
  • I know no-one who has died from Covid and only a few who have been infected. This does not prove Covid is not a problem.
  • 1 person in ~500 is reported to have died with Covid. I probably know no more than a couple of hundred people reasonably well - it is no surprise I know no-one who has actually died.
  • I am told that the dominant route for infection is in households. It is no surprise that if one individual is infected, others in the same household will be.
  • India demand for healthcare significantly exceeds capacity - chaotic and thoroughly unpleasant. It matters not that statistically they have fewer deaths or cases per m than Greece or the UK etc.
  • Averages are only useful if applied in context - they otherwise distort reactions and responses. The media seem to be complicit (deliberately or otherwise) in distortion through selective reporting
  • Asserting the problem in India is past a peak based on a few days data is nonsense. It may simply be human behaviours changing in response to increased infections, or limited data quality.
As I belong to a retired, financially fairly secure, detached house, county town demographic the pandemic has been frustrating rather than problematic. But I accept my experience is not typical and many have been personally impacted by loss, health, financial and other issues.
 
If I could play 5 a side for 5 minutes without being cream krackered, I would be delighted!!! :)

The last few posts of this thread have a familiar narrative that has parallels to the guards on saws debate... Those that have not lost their fingers and don't know anyone who has lost fingers think it's a myth and they will be saved by careful practices. Those that know someone who lost fingers or have lost a finger themselves can see the damage that has done and use guards. The problem with that approach when it comes to Covid is that the "no guard" people are risking other people's fingers as well as their own.

Who misplaced the covid pushsticks?
 
This is absolutely not the case. There are plenty of USA states and countries that told people to carry on as normal. Even our lockdowns weren't a genuine prevention of mixing they just a collection of daft rules strangling business.

Why have we not seen spikes in genuine illness in Schools since they went back?
Why have we not seen spikes in supermarket workers who are on the front line?
Hi Selwyn,

I didn't make a comment on lockdown policies in the USA, rather I think Rocherch's is question probes an underlying feature of the pandemic, that its not really a homogenous spread but in reality a series of very localised epidemics.
The data seems to fit this pattern, weather lockdowns have been applied or not. For this reason we all experience very different pandemics. Some of us, are fortunate to be largely untouched by it, while others have been devastated. this pattern of disease spread makes adopting a national policy harder. Although surveys find that most people support the governments approach in the UK.

The only real exception is the 'very draconian' steps made in some Asian countries where superfast track and trace literally stops infection in its tracks, I'm referring to China, Taiwan, S Korea and Singapore as examples of this very intrusive but effective lockdown. Australia and New Zealand has a similar if less draconian approach. However I don't consider these countries as good comparators for the UK/Europe/US as our economies are social structures are quite different. We have a lot more work based travel and service based economies. and we don't lock up noncompliant citizens.

My observation about Covid being a series of local, mini epidemics is based on local UK data, and ,I think it fits this pattern. Infections are very local, ie you either get just one or two isolated cases or you get a localised epidemic. If I take the schools round us, most have very little infection, the odd case that gets clamped down on, however a few schools got overrun and had to close temporarily. In March on schools opening, Bradford reported that there were 40 schools with just one infection and 27 had to close a whole bubble year due to in-class transmission.
What also seems to be emerging, is the vaccination programmes is having a meaningful impact. Infection rates are falling at the moment in-spite of us unlocking, that was not the case in January when schools first went back after Christmas.

I suspect this pattern is pretty representative of Europe and North America as we have similar social and economic models.
From what I've read about the US, most early cases were centred on cities, with little early infection in rural settings, however I've read about rural arears that seemed to follow this pattern of nasty local spikes of infection that suddenly caught the community 'unaware's so to speak.

My parents live is the small unitary county of Rutland. This had very low infection rates and was in the lower tier of lockdown for most of last year. It then went to the highest rate in the country during February. I asked my parents what had changed and in fact very little had. There were two outbreaks, one in the local prison and one in the village of Ketton that stemmed from a large party. These two very local incidents were responsible for 98% of the outbreak, the rest of the county, its two small towns were pretty much unaffected.

Not seen spikes on supermarkets.
Not sure what the explanation is, I suspect its the way the virous transmits through airborne droplets (aerosols). Transmission seems to be highest in family homes and in hospitality venues, such as, pubs, in taxis, and also cold-chain-packing such as meat processors.
From what I can tell, the large open spaces in supermarkets, limited crowds due to the queuing/traffic light systems and the shields for staff seem to be effective. One thing that seems to be emerging, is this virus does not easily transmit from surfaces such as packaging. This is different to colds and flue where particles on surfaces are believed to be part of the transmission of those viruses.

Not sure if I've really answered your question. The real point is we don't observe the pandemic as a homogeneous transmission - say as an economic recession or a drought or flood. This is a set of very local issues affecting isolated families. The case of my sons best friend's dad dying. The whole family got covid, some really badly others less so. That has been our experience all along, most people I know have not had it, but a few families have had it and there overall experience was bad, the young, ok on the whole, but their parents not so, and a few have long covid - I think the figure of 1 in 20 feels right from my personal experience of family and friends.
Best wishes Tom
 
My understanding is that the uk variant was 70% more transmissible, hence spread far more rapidly. The significance of that is subjective.

Not sure what “They can't even isolate covid let alone a variant” means. Are you saying that variants cannot be identified. Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean by “isolate” and the significance of not being able to do it.

I doubt any of these variants are any more or less transmissible than any others. They are fundamentally the same thing and they are all constantly changing anyway.
 
Not seen spikes on supermarkets.
Not sure what the explanation is, I suspect its the way the virous transmits through airborne droplets (aerosols). Transmission seems to be highest in family homes and in hospitality venues, such as, pubs, in taxis, and also cold-chain-packing such as meat processors.
From what I can tell, the large open spaces in supermarkets, limited crowds due to the queuing/traffic light systems and the shields for staff seem to be effective. One thing that seems to be emerging, is this virus does not easily transmit from surfaces such as packaging. This is different to colds and flue where particles on surfaces are believed to be part of the transmission of those viruses.


Best wishes Tom

I'm not sure there have been any transmission incidents of super spreading from pubs or hospitality venues since March 2020? I'm not even sure taxi drivers were particularly high for covid infections?

It could be that all these corner shops and supermarkets are incredibly scrupulous and are able to "clean" away these viral microparticles but it seems unlikely they would achieve that level of affect. If you can smell a fart in a supermarket then you will definitely be able to ingest viral particles through the masks.

Maybe these shops were able to acheive the impossible yet a clothes shop wasn't? Seems unlikely...
 
Ebola, you are somewhat right in that it essentially killed to quick, however, there was epidemics, which could have grown further, without track and trace implemented. it wasn't just a couple unfortunate people, it was 10,000 or something. thats still alot of sadness, everyones life is precious

Yes unfortunate but bear in mind where Ebola outbreaks have taken place though. Had they happened in a rich western country like the USA or UK it would likely have been single digit deaths.
 
I'm not sure there have been any transmission incidents of super spreading from pubs or hospitality venues since March 2020? I'm not even sure taxi drivers were particularly high for covid infections?

It could be that all these corner shops and supermarkets are incredibly scrupulous and are able to "clean" away these viral microparticles but it seems unlikely they would achieve that level of affect. If you can smell a fart in a supermarket then you will definitely be able to ingest viral particles through the masks.

Maybe these shops were able to achieve the impossible yet a clothes shop wasn't? Seems unlikely...

I don't know what the data shows, but gather that it was pretty easy to see in shutdowns here which types of locations corresponded with spikes. Two things did (aside from workplace):
* bars, restaurants, places where people congregate face to face indoors in dense groups and long durations
* family events - thanksgiving and Christmas caused explosions here, as did typical funerals and churches (who fought legal requirements)

supermarkets and large stores have so much air volume that the number of cases and severity of places like that never really made a bubble. That was important to observe.

as far as cleaning locations - let the air out. From early on (I sound like a record going around with this), it was clear that little to no transmission was occurring based on touch.

hopefully your farts don't come out in droplets! (i'm guessing they stay up in the air a little better and can be thinned out but you still smell them).

can't speak for clothing shops - I doubt too much transmission happened shopping because nobody was in anyone else's face and most locations are commercial with fast air changeover.
 
Can covid be spread by farts? It is present in faeces of some people and is linked to diarrhoea. Has this been studied? Wouldn't it be a laugh if it turned out we should have been wearing masks on our buttocks instead of our faces!
 
I'm not sure there have been any transmission incidents of super spreading from pubs or hospitality venues since March 2020? I'm not even sure taxi drivers were particularly high for covid infections?

It could be that all these corner shops and supermarkets are incredibly scrupulous and are able to "clean" away these viral microparticles but it seems unlikely they would achieve that level of affect. If you can smell a fart in a supermarket then you will definitely be able to ingest viral particles through the masks.

Maybe these shops were able to acheive the impossible yet a clothes shop wasn't? Seems unlikely...
HI again,
I was basing my comment about hospitality on an ONS report back in January, I'll see if I can find it. found that cirtain professoins associated with hospitality had the highest incidents, eg, cold chain processors, Chefs, pub/restaurant workers taxi drivers, (bus drivers much less affected about .7 of taxi drivers) and security guards (the latter catagoriy coves so much not sure it was that meanifusl ie bouncers in clubs and offices.

There is a distiction between corner shops and supermarkets. Corner shops in London and towns with covid were impacted by COVID supermarkes seemed unharmed.

I cant really comment on why some shops were shut and others not. I presume the government was minimising people contact so restricting essential to food shops. I could see that cloths shops could involved people in confined spaces, but suspect they just happened to fall the wrong side of a line.
If you are asking my opinion on the virtues of a lockdown - and this is a subjective personal view. Its something always been a last resort in the UK, to do as a last resort when you have lost control of an epidemic or have an unknown disease (such as the Salisbury in 2016 before they found the source of the poisonings.). Generally speaking the UK has adopted track and trace isolate since Dr Snow cholera paper back in 1854. It used to be quite brutal before wide spread vaccination with isolation hospitals for TB and the like. My wife was ordered out of a TB area as a child in a quite ferocious encounter with a public heath official in the mid 1960s. These days most public heath is chasing down the odd case of measles and the occasional polio and TB outbreak in very local communities - or Salisbury for instance. Lockdown on this scale has not been since for decades in the Uk and has always been viewed as a sign of failure of the normal track trace isolate that has been going in the UK for 170 years or more.
The UK has lectured the world on how to do track trace isolate, for the best part of 200 years, we send out PH folk to the WHO etc and fly them into outbreaks of ebola etc. So I cant see the UK abandoning something it has lectured the world on for nearly 200 years.

Edit today at 17.45 Found the ONS report:

Coronavirus (COVID-19) related deaths by occupation, England and Wales - Office for National Statistics the table is bottom of point 3. Its an expansion of what they classify as 'elementary professions' I can't really comment on its validity as its not a huge amount of data, but ONS has a good reputation for drawing out good statistical comparisons.

The accompanying datasets provide data on a wide range of occupations. Other than those already mentioned, the 10 occupations with the highest rates of death involving COVID-19 were:

  • restaurant and catering establishment managers and proprietors (119.3 deaths per 100,000 males; 26 deaths)
  • metal working and machine operatives (106.1 deaths per 100,000 males; 40 deaths)
  • food, drink and tobacco process operatives (103.7 deaths per 100,000 males; 52 deaths)
  • chefs (103.1 deaths per 100,000 males; 82 deaths)
  • taxi and cab drivers and chauffeurs (101.4 deaths per 100,000 males; 209 deaths)
  • nursing auxiliaries and assistants (87.2 deaths per 100,000 males; 45 deaths)
  • elementary construction occupations (82.1 deaths per 100,000 males; 70 deaths)
  • nurses (79.1 deaths per 100,000 males; 47 deaths)
  • local government administrative occupations (72.1 deaths per 100,000 males; 23 deaths)
  • bus and coach drivers (70.3 deaths per 100,000 males; 83 deaths)
I'm sure the high rates in hospitality is what has driven the current lockdown/ unlock process
 
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Can covid be spread by farts? It is present in faeces of some people and is linked to diarrhoea. Has this been studied? Wouldn't it be a laugh if it turned out we should have been wearing masks on our buttocks instead of our faces!
I hope you are covering your buttocks when you go out already!
 
Can covid be spread by farts?

I doubt it. There was some concern about the issue of toilets creating a mist when they flush, but I've heard little about that since early on.
 
I doubt any of these variants are any more or less transmissible than any others. They are fundamentally the same thing and they are all constantly changing anyway.
What about your Statement “They can't even isolate covid let alone a variant” which I do not understand. Are you saying that variants cannot be identified. Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean by “isolate” and the significance of not being able to do it.
 
The variants change slowly. Minor changes have less of a significance in severity and more of a significance in how viable they are in terms of reproduction (not an expert, and not going to look for the details , but recall the discussions centering around the spikes).

From the outset, they mentioned that coronaviruses change, but they don't change that quickly.
 
No they advocated protecting the vulnerable....but Rorschach and any other pro herd immunity / GBD believer has yet to say how this could be done (it can't)
Brazil had a go - that went well didn't it. To quote Jair Bolsonaro With 1000 deaths a day "it's only the sniffles" with 3000 deaths a day "do stop moaning" nice chap
 
How ironic, our leaders push ahead with the G7 summit, no they do not use technology such as video conferencing but want face to face and the traffic light system does not apply to VIP's as they are to important and the Indians end up in quarantine as they are positive for Covid, surely our government new the risk otherwise they would not have put India into the Red category. This is our real threat now, not Covid itself as we seem to have this under reasonable control but opening ourselves up to invasion from outside.
 
Brazil had a go - that went well didn't it. To quote Jair Bolsonaro With 1000 deaths a day "it's only the sniffles" with 3000 deaths a day "do stop moaning" nice chap

Comparatively Brazil is doing the same as we are/were so doesn't look so bad (at the moment).
 
How ironic, our leaders push ahead with the G7 summit, no they do not use technology such as video conferencing but want face to face and the traffic light system does not apply to VIP's as they are to important and the Indians end up in quarantine as they are positive for Covid, surely our government new the risk otherwise they would not have put India into the Red category. This is our real threat now, not Covid itself as we seem to have this under reasonable control but opening ourselves up to invasion from outside.
Would you include us going on holiday abroad and then returning as “invasion from outside”
 
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