Old saws; blued finish to blade.

[Cheshirechappie]

A couple of weeks ago I bid on, and was lucky enough to win, an Ebay old saw. It's a 26" handsaw, 5 1/2 ppi (4 1/2 tpi) with a nice old-style handle, four split-nut screws, all of which are plain (no medallion) but one of which is larger than the others. All the screws are tight, and show no signs of having been tightened during their life.

One of the first things one does on receiving such a saw is look for the etch. Some tentative scraping of rust and dust revealed the imprint of the word 'Warranted'. Not an etch - a stamped imprint.

At this point, I paused and examined the saw more carefully. There was the usual rust and dust, of course, but the blade near the toothline on the split nut side was smooth to the fingers (rusty blades tend to feel rough), but dark-coloured. I therefore abandoned my original plan which was to dissemble and restore the saw, giving it a new set of rip teeth, and decided to just clean and conserve instead.

The handle (the screws of which were not disturbed) was treated with a mixture of linseed oil, turpentine, vinegar and methylated spirit. This was intended to loosen a couple of old paint stains, and remove dust, which it did; the paint was teased off with a scalpel blade. The blade was given a light rubbing with a mild abrasive (Brillo pad in this case) to remove surface rust, which it did. I abandoned previous thoughts about scrubbing with wet-and-dry, which I decided would damage any original finish should it still be there. It was. Over the whole blade. It also revealed the whole of the stamped imprint, which is not deep but is clear to read in a slanting light. It reads 'Thos. Ibbotson and Co Cast Steel Warranted Sheffield' The patina on the handle is dark (apart from a lighter patch on the 'stamp' side where it appears the sawyers index finger rested on the wood - could the saw have been used by a left-hander?), and had been left as cleaned. The blade has been protected with a coat of Renaissance Wax.

Stamping marks on sawblades was abandoned when the acid etch was introduced in the 1840s. (Stamping a thin piece of steel, even shallowly, is almost bound to distort it, giving the sawsmith a straightening operation that etching would eliminate from the manufacturing process.) According to British Planemakers 2nd edition, Thomas Ibbotson were in business from about 1825, so if BPM is about correct in it's dates, that nicely dates the saw to between 1825 and 1850, supported by the lack of a medallion, which were introduced somewhat later (I think).

The slightly surprising thing for me is the survival of the original blade finish (apart from a couple of rust pits). It's definitely a dark finish, but whether it's an oil-blacking or heat-blueing (which would happen naturally during tempering) is rather hard to judge.

Question chaps and chapesses - has anybody else come across an old saw with a blued or oil-blacked blade?

(PS - Genuinely very sorry I can't do pictures; still no digital camera - but it's a saw-shaped saw with an old curly handle. You've all seen them.)

Edit to add - something I forgot to mention. The saw is currently filed crosscut, and rather unevenly; given that 5 1/2 ppi crosscut is pretty vicious, I suspect it's a later modification; I suspect it may have been filed rip originally. Not much of the sawblade has been used; I'd say about 1/8" at most, judging from the sloped finished end to the heel end of the toothline, and the toe being a full 2 3/8" deep. It also has a rather shapely nib decoration to the top-end of the toe. When I think on to get the micrometer out, I'll measure the taper grind, but it's definitely there - very visible to the naked eye.

 

[DuncanA]

I've got a Tenon saw which I've always thought has an unusually dark blade.

It's stamped 'Turtle Croydon' and has the Ilse of Man 'three legs' along with the letters J P as a trade/makers mark. I've no idea how old it is, it belonged to my Granddad, who got it from his Uncle, and it probably belonged to someone else before that as it's been initialled LK, which doesn't match the family tree.

The blade is fairly clean but a very dark colour, similar to what you describe, compared to other saws I've seen. Though I've not the experience to say if it's oil-blacked etc. I have sometimes wondered if it's a new saw plate, as before my Granddad gave it to me he sent it away to be sharpened - I've wondered if they might have just put a modern blade in it. There's no sign of any etch.

I can try and get some pictures up for comparison if they'd help.

 

[G S Haydon]

CC, for heavens sake get a Camera sorted! That description is very detailed but leaves me wanting more! I really don't know about the bluing at all, most of the old saws we have seem blackened but I assume this was to do with a lifetime of use?

 

[Bod]

Does it look like this?

This is a Thomas turner, the blue/black finsh is too even to be done by chance in storage, the saw has seen very little use, I too am wondering what to do with it, it cuts, but needs sharpening, and the handle, oil it, sand then oil, sand-stain-polish?

Its not the only saw that colour I have, several older ones all with nibs, 1 Disston D-7(?), but that I reckon is dirt! its not anything like as old as the others.

Bod

 

[AndyT]

I've no idea of the answer, but I see that the latest Tools and Trades History Society journal has just been published, with about half of its 107 pages devoted to two detailed historical accounts of saws and sawmakers. CC, I feel sure you would enjoy it! It's sent out to all members - more here.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Thanks for the replies, chaps!

Duncan - I rather doubt that a sharpener would replace a sawblade unless specifically asked to. Finding the right size and thickness of blade, trimming and drilling it to fit the handle would be more work than just sharpening it. I'd be fairly confident that the blade in the saw is the original, and if there's no etch, it may well be pre-1850. Backsaws tended to have their markings impressed on the back; it saved having to straighten the blade after impressing it.

G.S. - I've been upbraided about my lack of digital photography capability before, several times! It's just that it's yet another gadget that seems to need endless extra bits, and needs replacing with depressing frequency. Sometimes, I opt for the easy life, and have to accept the inevitable occasional inconvenience.
Like you, I'd previously assumed that black 'stain' on sawblades was down to age and tarnish, but I'm not so sure now....

Bod - Thanks for the photos - that's pretty much exactly what my saw looks like, even to the position of the stamping on the blade and the arrangement of sawscrews in the handle. Your description of the blade colour - too even to be tarnish or rust stain - is spot on. I cleaned my sawblade with just a light rub from a wetted Brillo pad; just enough to lift dirt, not a real scrubbing - and it seems to have brought it up nicely without damaging the original finish. As to whether to conserve and preserve, or restore and use, only you can decide. I'm going to conserve mine, though I suspect such saws are not really 'rare'. Similar ones seem to crop up on Ebay most weeks.

Andy - I have several assorted memberships accumulated from various interests over the years, and was desperately trying to avoid yet another, but I suspect I'm going to succumb to the lure of TATHS!

As a last point, I did put a micrometer to the blade. It's 0.048" at the heel end of the toothline, 0.049" at the top of the blade by the handle, 0.044" at the toe end of the toothline, and 0.038" at the top of the toe. I think the variation at the toothline is a fair indication that it's been ground by hand. The full 0.048" thickness is pretty full for a 26" saw - it is a heavy beast!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Some additional imformation.

I've just taken possession of a 20" 10 ppi panel saw, also old. The blade has 'Cast Steel' then a 1 3/4" gap and 'Warranted' stamped into it, the letters being about 3/32" high and in a serrifed font. Between the 'Steel' and 'Warranted' is another stamp, the letters about the same size but sans serif, and much fainter - i.e. less deeply impressed - reading '? Brown ??????? Street Liverpool'. So the saw has been 'factored' - made by an unnamed Sheffield firm, and supplied to a merchant in Liverpool for him to apply his own stamp. The handle has three split-nut screws, the middle one having a 3/4" wide-bordered medallion with the 'Warranted Superior' device. I'd estimate it be about 1840-1850ish in date (tentatively!).

The saw has seen a bit of work. The clipped angled heel end of the blade has been sharpened away, and the black/blued finish which is intact near the handle is worn off near the toothline and towards the toe. However, the intact finish near the handle is exactly the same as that noted on the previous saw described in the original post.

(If I outbid you for this saw, sorry - but if you were intending it for a user you may well have been disappointed. There's a distinct bow to the blade, and a couple of minor kinks. Making a user out of it may have been quite a challenge! As a piece of history, it's certainly not pristine, either, but it is a saw with a bit of character, and not without interest.)

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I've got a Tenon saw which I've always thought has an unusually dark blade.

It's stamped 'Turtle Croydon' and has the Ilse of Man 'three legs' along with the letters J P as a trade/makers mark. I've no idea how old it is, it belonged to my Granddad, who got it from his Uncle, and it probably belonged to someone else before that as it's been initialled LK, which doesn't match the family tree.

The blade is fairly clean but a very dark colour, similar to what you describe, compared to other saws I've seen. Though I've not the experience to say if it's oil-blacked etc. I have sometimes wondered if it's a new saw plate, as before my Granddad gave it to me he sent it away to be sharpened - I've wondered if they might have just put a modern blade in it. There's no sign of any etch.

I can try and get some pictures up for comparison if they'd help.

Bit of an update.

Turtle's were a Croydon hardware firm, in business from 1894 until 2008. The three legs of Man and J P were the trademark of Joseph Tyzack, more here - http://www.wkfinetools.com/huk/tyzackj/ ... -index.asp - who were in business from about 1812 until the late 1940s, when they became absorbed by successive parent companies, and are now part of Spear and Jackson.

Duncan, it sounds as if your saw is pre WW1, but no older than 1894. The dark colour may still be an applied finish - I have a Crownshaw Chapman tenon saw with a similar dark finish, and I suspect it's of about the same age.

It would be interesting to know when sawmakers ceased to apply a blued or blacked finish, and whether saws were available either bright or blued for a period. Anybody got any clues or leads?

 

[deserter]

I worked with a guy recently whom was in his 60's, and apprenticed as a joiner at age 15. He told me a story about the first job he went out onsite to, equipt with his nice new set of saws, all shiny and perfect.
well they were working on a farm in Wales, on the banks of a river. The guy teaching him said to take each of his saws in turn and to cut about 8"' off of the top of a line of 8" round green oak posts which were lining the garden. Once he'd finished cutting the guy looked his saw over and told him to have lunch then go cut another 8" off each post, again using all of his saws. As he finished the master was packing up for the day, but had a good look over his saws. He was told not to wipe them clean, but wrap them in news paper and leave them over night.
The next day he unwrapped them and was horrified to see the blades had all turned blue.
He was informed that the tannins in the oak had stained the blades, but whilst ever they stayed blue they wouldn't rust.
Almost 50 years later and still no sign of rust, so there must be some truth in the practice.

Sent from my D5503 using Tapatalk

 

[DuncanA]

Thanks for the info on the saws CC, I didn't realise mine might be that old!

After reading some of the posts here I went to have a closer look at my saw and I'm now starting to think it might just be discolouration from age. The metal is much cleaner where it joins the handle, so I expect any darkening happened after the handle was put on. I've got a Turtle Croydon dovetail saw which is twinned with the tenon saw and is a much lighter colour - I'd guess because it was used less.
As they're from the same maker and the same age I'd have thought that, if the darkening was something done during the manufacturing process, they both would be dark, as only one is I'm leaning towards aging.

I've attached a few photos which may be of interest, but the darker tenon saw doesn't look quite as dark in the picture as it does in real life.

Hope you have more luck finding the info you want,

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Deserter - thanks for that. I'd heard of green oak staining iron or steel, but I've never come across the phenomenon being used deliberately before. I can see the point, though; the modern workshop with some heat in winter is something of a newish luxury. Certainly in the 1800s and up until the 1960s tools had to live in unheated and sometimes rather damp conditions, so craftsmen would value any measure they could take against rusting.

Duncan - thanks for the info and photos. Couple of nice saws there - craftsman's tools, those, not cheap rubbish. Speculating a little, here, but I suspect that brass wouldn't have been used for sawbacks during WW1, so that probably makes them earlier; split nut sawscrews went out of use by about 1920. That probably dates the saws to 1894-1914. Rather nice to have tools with a family connection, too.
I'd tend to agree that the staining on the blade of the tenon saw is down to age and use. It isn't as intense a colour as on the old saws I described, and it's a bit uneven as well - the colour on my old saws is quite even all over. Indeed, from what I've seen on Ebay, the colouring on your saws is pretty typical of saws of that era, which rather suggests that the practice of blueing or blacking saws at manufacture had either ceased altogether or was the exception by the end of the 19th century.

As to whether my question might be answered, I live in hope! My internet searches have so far drawn a blank, though an illustration of the reproduction toolchest made at Colonial Williamsburg of Benjamin Seaton's toolchest in the book about same does show one of the longsaws in the chest to be rather nicely blued, so that might be lead worth following up. Perhaps the question might hang unanswered or semi-answered - after all, we don't know everything about our ancestors' past practices! - but you never know; information can turn up when you least expect it!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Another update.

I cleaned up a saw earlier today. It was a fairly recent one - I'd estimate 1930s to 1950s - a 28" rip by Robert Sorby (Kangaroo medallion and all). It had surface rust, but no apparent pitting.

It was quite a job cleaning it. Wire wool and white spirit wouldn't shift the rust. I had to work with 240 grit wet-and-dry and white spirit, and even that took some time. It did clean up nicely in the end, though - a lovely etch emerged in the middle of the blade. It's a cast steel number 086 patent machine ground by Robt Sorby and Sons, Sheffield, according to the said etch.

The point of this saga is that whatever the finish is on the older saws, it's VERY effective. They cleaned up nicely with just a light swipe from a Brillo pad - the much newer cast steel Sorby with a haze of rust took far more effort.