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Old Brooks or wadkin motors for Wadkin RM over Under

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tool613

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Picked up a Wadkin RM Under Over 26" jointer on top a 24x9 planner 1920s to late 40s.the machine is motorless and I am looking for spares (240 3 phase) Do you even have this voltage there in the UK? First does any one have this machine and know what motors were on it? I have looked through the manual but it does not say anything about cuter block speed or motors specs.

The wadkin R family of machines were designed in the 20s and built up until the mid 50s they were the first generation of machines in England to be offered Line belt or motor dive. Most of the time you will see that the motors are just after thoughts. I have be on the look out for a few of these rare machines. I have an RS lathe and RD jointer but the Wadkin RM is a hard one to find (in Canada). When you talk as much as i do about wadkin people start to contact you and give you the heads up on where machines can be had. It is in this case that the RM makes it way to me. A fiend and Wadkin lover (RD and RK owner) got this before the scrap man For the price of a 18volt battery for my hand drill. He was going to keep it but call me up and said it needs to be in the Wadkin dream shop. I am never to sale it and he said he's gets to try it out when i Jackafie it. I am beside myself.

What can you tell me about the motors specs? are there places in the UK to pick up old vintage motors?


jack
 

9fingers

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UK motors would have been 240v single phase or 440v 3 phase star. Modern UK motors tend to be dual voltage with six terminals so you can wire for 240v three phase delta or 440v three phase star.

If you can get an old UK motor, it is often possible to open up the star point inside the motor and bring out the extra 3 wires to wire in delta for 240 three phase.

I don't know of a source of vintage motors and even f you got one the insulation may well have failed. Would you consider a modern motor fitted inside an old casing? Or is that cheating?

Bob
 

tool613

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Bob
9fingers":3kihlcih said:
If you can get an old UK motor, it is often possible to open up the star point inside the motor and bring out the extra 3 wires to wire in delta for 240 three phase.
Is there a way to know this with out opening the end bells?

9fingers":3kihlcih said:
Would you consider a modern motor fitted inside an old casing? Or is that cheating?
how would one do that? DC

The motors are the footed type and would be easy to change to modern but i would like to find vintage motors even if they are 440 3.
could i rewind 440 star to 240 delta. then all i would need is a burnt motor.

here is a pic of the drive train and motors i am trying to find



jack
 

9fingers

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tool613":2zy3yee7 said:
Bob
9fingers":2zy3yee7 said:
If you can get an old UK motor, it is often possible to open up the star point inside the motor and bring out the extra 3 wires to wire in delta for 240 three phase.
Is there a way to know this with out opening the end bells?

9fingers":2zy3yee7 said:
Would you consider a modern motor fitted inside an old casing? Or is that cheating?
how would one do that? DC

The motors are the footed type and would be easy to change to modern but i would like to find vintage motors even if they are 440 3.
could i rewind 440 star to 240 delta. then all i would need is a burnt motor.

here is a pic of the drive train and motors i am trying to find



jack
You would have to take the ends off the motor- usually the non shaft end. I've always been able to do it OK - my only concern would be disturbing wiring inside could crack the old rubber insulation on the leads but a sympathetic re-wind shop should be able to sort that out.

Fitting a modern motor inside an vintage casing is based on the fact that modern motors are much smaller for a given power rating than their older counterparts.
Looking at the picture, the cutter block motor would have been a 2 pole machine in order to get a sensible cutter speed around 4000 rpm at a guess.

The feed motor would have been 4 or 6 poles - you should be able to work that out from the gearing and a typical timber feed rate. If your machine was a UK 50hz model - bearing mind that standard speeds are 4pole 1425 rpm and 6 pole about 950.

If you are rewinding a motor for the cutter block then maybe a 4pole could be rewound as a 2pole - again talk to the rewind shop guys. In fact they might be good guys to befriend to acquire old motors??

good luck

Bob
 

wallace

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Hi, its nice to see another wadkin nut. I too have a RS lathe and a little RB 6"planer and a LM pillar drill. I got the motor on the planer from a local motor rewinder. Its off a much bigger wadkin planer.




Good luck with the restoration.
Mark
 

tool613

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9fingers":2vi98nko said:
If you are rewinding a motor for the cutter block then maybe a 4pole could be rewound as a 2pole - again talk to the rewind shop guys. In fact they might be good guys to befriend to acquire old motors??

good luck
Bob there a great shop and do great work If I bring them the stader they will rewind for $350(6 hours labor). I had them rewind my RS from 575 to 240/3 so i could run it on a VFD.

thanks for the help. I think your right on the motors speeds. i was thinking that the feed motor could run on a VFD so poll count would not be a big problem. 2 polls are common though and i think that's what it is . the Rm was made for Canada, but for the old 25hrz system from Niagara falls at 575 volts so its no wonder the motor are gone. Not sure what goes on in a motor when they wire for it for 25hrz? more polls maybe

wallace":2vi98nko said:
Hi, its nice to see another wadkin nut. I too have a RS lathe and a little RB 6"planer and a LM pillar drill. I got the motor on the planer from a local motor rewinder. Its off a much bigger wadkin planer.
Wallace
That's a great looking restoration of the wadkin RB. What makes it an RB and not an RA? i Thought the RA was a 6" and the RB was the 9" and the RD the 16".

I just love wadkin and i have a few i have restored

RS lathe 10"
PK slider
JY oss
DR 30" band saw

In the Q
RD
RM
BRA
BER
DM


I do have a few other English makers like Bursgreen(before Wadkin) and a great Stenner chain chisel mortiser. The Brookman dovetailer is a fine machine too.

I find you can't get better kit for the money.

jack
 

9fingers

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tool613":3fk5zv6d said:
the Rm was made for Canada, but for the old 25hrz system from Niagara falls at 575 volts so its no wonder the motor are gone. Not sure what goes on in a motor when they wire for it for 25hrz? more polls maybe

jack

Nooooo more poles = less speed

Theoretical Speed in RPM = 2 x (frequency x 60)/ number of poles )

in practice the speed is a bit lower than theoretical due to magnetic slip. The number of poles is always an even number.

Absolute fastest for a motor on 25 Hz supply is 1500 rpm or more like 1425 rpm with some slip

Bob

Edited to fix a couple of errors
 

wallace

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Hi Jack, youre probably right about mine being a RA. Am I right in thinking you're the chap on old wood working machinery site. I followed the restoration of your RS and thought you did an amazeing job. This is my little effort. It's not as tidy now, theres about 4 inches of chippings evrywhere.



Mark
 

tool613

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Mark
That's a great job on the RS too. Looks like you got one of the early version "early models had a pexi-glass window fitted across the front of the headstock to allow a confirmation that the belt change had been properly made, this was soon dropped as the mechanism employed proved entirely effective and reliable"

Ya that's me over on OWWU, But there are not very many wadkin lovers there. I had hoped to spread the word that wadkin is some of the BEST OWWM there is .

I love the little RA's and would love to have one. I did find a Bursgreen FM that i Jackifided. same age as the RA but with parallegram
tables. and the motor in the base. its an early 40's machines. I made the missing bridge guarding and restored the old motor controls.

before

after





I was hoping some of you were taking the 3 phase motors off and putting single phase one on and there be a few old motors around.I am looking to do the RM Justice.


jack
 

wallace

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Hi Jack, my intention was to change motors over to single phase but then I got the RS which has the long pulley shaft. So instead I got a static converter to run my 3 phase stuff. Cheaper than changeing all the motors. If I remember rightly you have a nice bobbin sander? by wadkin
Mark
 

Vann

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tool613":2dauai6i said:
Picked up a Wadkin RM Under Over 26" jointer on top a 24x9 planner 1920s to late 40s.the machine is motorless and I am looking for spares (240 3 phase) Do you even have this voltage there in the UK? First does any one have this machine and know what motors were on it? I have looked through the manual but it does not say anything about cuter block speed or motors specs.

snip

What can you tell me about the motors specs? are there places in the UK to pick up old vintage motors?
I know this is a very old thread, but in case anyone else is in the same position as Jack was back in 2011, here is what RMA 839 (a 16" model) came equipped with when it left the Wadkin works on 18th October, 1943, bound for New Zealand.

The machine was fitted with two English Electric Company Ltd (Bradford) electric motors, with Messers. Brookhirst Switchgear Ltd, Northgate Works, Chester, supplying ancillary gear.
The motor for planning head was a 4hp, 2860rpm, 400/440v, 3phase, 50cycles electric motor No.5N. 10125/6,
while that for the feed rollers was a 1hp, 930rpm, 380/420v, 3phase, 50cycles electric motor No.5N. 10128/16.

RMA 839a.jpg

Cheers, Vann.
 

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Vann

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wallace":3frg7ggu said:
I'm surprised at just 1hp for the feed
I didn't have any expectations of horsepower. My Makita thicknesser :oops: has the feed powered off the cutter motor.

However, I came across this today...
aWadRM.jpg

from this thread: wadkin-time-warp-workshop-kent-t58290.html?hilit=Wadkin%20time%20Warp%20workshop&start=45
aWadRM3.jpg

Which shows that the feed motors on the 16", 20" and 24" RM are all just 1hp, while the cutterblock motor increases from 4hp to 5hp for the 20" and 24" models.

Cheers, Vann.
 

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Bod

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Would there be any interest in an old but working Brooks 1.5 HP single phase electric motor?
It's currently sitting in Bedford, and would need collecting from there.
PM me for details, and photos.

Bod
 

Vann

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Bod":1slaeyaj said:
Would there be any interest in an old but working Brooks 1.5 HP single phase electric motor?
It's currently sitting in Bedford, and would need collecting from there.
I love the look of old electric motors. Thanks for the offer, but it's no good to me - I'm in New Zealand. And the OP is in Canada (and now has his Wadkin RM up and running - and looking beautiful).

Hopefully it will be of use to someone.

Cheers, Vann.
 

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