OK Please, please explain

[Adam]

You could ask the same thing (and perhaps get more responses), on the woodrat forum - which found at www.woodrat.com, then click on the links.

Adam

Or here

http://www.walcotmedia.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=d6f659950860223528b207c8e5d21917;act=SF;f=1

 

[Alf]

As I've expressed before on other threads I think a comparison of the 'Rat and Leigh is very strange.

Too right. If you must compare, you should probably compare the Leigh with the LittleRat, which has the same limitations on what DT cutters you can use. :wink:

A duckin' an' a runnin', Alf

 

[Anonymous]

Anyone near Leicester area with a Rat they would like to show off one weekend soon?

Cheers

Tony

Tony - I'm about an hour's drive down the M1 from Leicester - willing to show if you want. Bit of a trek, but up to you. Let me know in advance, so I can at least tidy up a bit!

 

[Anonymous]

I am astounded at how quickly people in this forum spend their money. I wonder if the RAT - Leigh wars are really about quality or perhaps more about owning the next tool.

I am as taken by tool purchase as the next man. I own a Felder combo, but I see both RAT and Leigh as superfluous to woodworking. My solution is to buy a book on shop jigs. Make the jigs, use the jigs. I can make M&T faster than any store bought jign using a few pieces of MDF formed into a jig with no size restrictions.

Go to use shop constructed jigs first, simple, cheap, any size you want when you want it.

regards
alan

 

[Aragorn]

Go to use shop constructed jigs first, simple, cheap, any size you want when you want it.

... But... zero flexibility, limited longevity, variable accuracy and precious woodworking time spent making jigs!

 

[johnjin]

Aragorn
You hit the nail on the head with that post :wink:

John

 

[Guest]

While I accept that the rat will do all the things mentioned I still think spending £500? on a jig to make the small number of joints most weekenders make is a price I, for one would not be able to bring myself to pay. I would say that if a simple jig won't make the dts you like why not get some real satisfaction and learn to make them by hand. I must admit to being a tool freak but £500,!!!

 

[Anonymous]

I am astounded at how quickly people in this forum spend their money. I wonder if the RAT - Leigh wars are really about quality or perhaps more about owning the next tool.

Well, it took me about 2 years to decide to buy the rat - is that quick? Previous to that, I handcut dovetails. I didn't buy the rat for anything but DTs, but having played have realised its potential for other joints, primarily tenons (which I used to cut either with shop made jig or RAS). Latest tools? Last tool I bought was about 40 years old - a nice Stanley 4 an a 'arf.

Why did I go from handcut to rat for DTs? Cos it takes a fraction of the time to cut the DTs; longer to set up, sure, but overall I reckon a box or a single drawer on the rat takes me about 1/2 the time of handcutting, and making multiples improves that ratio significantly. Thus far, results with the rat have been on a par with my handcuts, but I suspsect that'll improve (always have a problem with the shoulder line on handcuts - poor chisel technique, despite teaching Alf to suck eggs on that subject!)

 

[cambournepete]

While I accept that the rat will do all the things mentioned I still think spending £500? on a jig to make the small number of joints most weekenders make is a price I, for one would not be able to bring myself to pay.

Which is why I was rather chuffed to get one for £80 at auction (see earlier post) Yet to try it though what with gardening, children, work etc all getting in the way - not to mention tidying the garage (oops - workshop) so I can find some floor and wall space.

 

[Anonymous]

Jaymar, whilst I see your point, £500 is not a lot of money to spend on a hobby to an awful lot of people. Consider the following:
I do not smoke and never have but lots of people do smoke 20 a day @ £4.50 per pack. So, 100 days of not smoking (14 weeks) pays for the Rat.
Also I do not drink much as I never have enough free time to get out to the pub!!!! £2.00+ per pint?

Also consider my brother-in-laws hobby, sailing. He owns a boat at present that cost him £120,000 second hand :shock:

What about Golf? I know a bloke who pays £600 per year just to belong to the club he plays at.
Motorcycling £12,000+ for a Ducati??
Young lads who are happy spending £1500 on new wheels for their car??? Why for gods sake? It came with wheels didn't it :twisted:

The list is endless.

Also consider age and circumstances, I have a well paid job and a wife who also works + I am the wrong side of 39 .

I say £500 for a good quality tool is worth it if you enjoy using said tool.

That is after all why most of us do this hobby and post here - enjoyment.

ISN'T IT :?: :?: :?:

Cheers

Tony (stepping down around now)

PS don't forget 'the spy who lov' eh sorry wrong Bond movie. 'You only live twice'. That's better

 

[Aragorn]

Oooooooo nice one Tony....
....In other words, you'll be getting the Leigh FMT soon!
GREAT FUN!! :wink:

 

[Bean]

I think Espedair Street has a point, and I am comming from the same angle. I have been making in wood seriously for a couple of years now, and all with hand tools, all joints cut by hand and yes i can cut DT's and MT's resonably quickly with presentable results. But I have a limited amount of time for my hobby and a relativly small workshop in a single garage. I do not have the time or space for Jigs, i've been there when I made a greenhouse for a relative, it was a one off like the majority of my jobs (Flute stands excluded) so I need the flexibility that a rat can offer without the equivelent of 3 sheets of MDF hanging around the workshop, it's not as if it burns well when you have finished it. So for £500 or a lot less if you can pick one up a rat is a welcome addition to my shop.

I don't remember this sort of debate about Rip Saws and Table saws :wink:

Bean

 

[DaveL]

3 sheets of MDF hanging around the workshop, it's not as if it burns well when you have finished it.

Well I can keep the shop warm on MDF, the wood burner loves the stuff :wink: anyway what are you finishing it with :shock:

 

[Bean]

Dave its a special secret formula that involves leaving it outside in the rain before I put the fire out with it , I may even be allowed to forget it this year assuming we dont have another power cut. :wink:

Bean

 

[Adam]

While I accept that the rat will do all the things mentioned I still think spending £500? on a jig to make the small number of joints most weekenders make is a price I, for one would not be able to bring myself to pay. I would say that if a simple jig won't make the dts you like why not get some real satisfaction and learn to make them by hand. I must admit to being a tool freak but £500,!!!

I got thinking about this... I think exactly the oppsoite - that its cheap! I've already indicated I consider it to be a third of the price of a Leigh (although not really comparable as the Leigh is much more productionised but if you compare to the levels most people buy at (i.e. trend stuff)... first the trend "multi-function" dovetail jig is £300, the trend M&T jig is £150, trend "pro" router table £350, Triton finger jointer £100

OK, so even if you don't go for the expensive router table, perhaps a cheaper one? £150? And perhaps a cheaper "fixed" dovetail jig - say £100, at the most, you are likely to be spending £900, and say you take a cheaper option, £500, this is just the same price, and you are not getting the same level of flexibility - by having "fixed" dovetails for example.

Doesn't this put the woodrat at a price point where it's starts to look really good value for money, and not only that (and very important to me) not only is it cheaper than buying all these jigs, and router tables, and whatnot, it takes less space! Even if you built you own router table, you'd still come in more than the price of a Littlerat!

I think it's unfair to compare the price of a 'rat to a dovetail jig, I think it needs comparing to dovetail jig, a router table, and a mortice and tenon jig at the very least, when deciding if it's expensive or not.

I noted that Axminster have started selling it (and the Littlerat) in the "review" catalogue that arrived today.

A. (should stir it up again :roll: )

 

[Anonymous]

Adam

I think you are now stretching your argument too far mate

Most people will only purchase the dovetail jig and no other accessories for it. My Leigh cost £270 inclusive of VAT and cutters. I have no intention of ever considering the other finger plates for box joints and the like, I can cut finger joints with a jig made in 30 minutes using a hand held router, router table or (I do not condone the removal of guards) table saw.

I think that you should argue for the Rat based upon it's strengths rather than an unfair and in some ways, pointless comparison with a collection of dovetail jig accessories that none of us would consider buying. People buy dovetailing jigs to cut dovetails, not other joints.

You need to face the fact that it is twice as expensive as a dovetial jig BUT dovetailing is only one of many things it can do.

As you can see for my previous post (rant) I am in agreement with you in principle, you get a lot for your £500 and I do not consider £500 a lot of money for years of enjoyment

Cheers

Tony

 

[Adam]

Fair enough, perhaps that was a liiiitttlleee to far, but in fairness, I definately use mine more as a "router" table, and M&T'er , than I do for anything else. THis is mainly to do with the fact I like bigger, rather than smaller pieces of furntiure. Perhaps their literature ought to make that a bit clearer. Certainly I enjoy it's ability to climb cut safely, thats a big plus, and making adjustments "on the fly", as everything held rigid in the machine is also a bonus. For anyone who's got one, I'd definately recommend you download the latest batch of manuals, theirs a load of new methods (mostly quicker) for stuff like dovetailed drawer fronts, batch cutting M&T. I only (finally) got round to downloading them as I bought the new aluminum guide rails (come as standard these days), and thought I'd better have a general upgrade.

Adam

 

[Alf]

For anyone who's got one, I'd definately recommend you download the latest batch of manuals, theirs a load of new methods (mostly quicker) for stuff like dovetailed drawer fronts, batch cutting M&T.

Thanks for the tip. I did wonder, but it's such a task on dial-up only to find it wasn't worth the effort that I hadn't checked. :roll:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Adam]

I can write the PDF's to CDR and post them if you want?

Adam

Who found recently the fastest bandwidth to move 100GB of data is to takeout the harddrive and post it :shock:

 

[Alf]

Adam,

Ta muchly but I've just downloaded the updates bit - wasn't as bad as I feared.

Cheers, Alf