deema":1yo52jdh said:
As an aside - in Walter Rose's Village Carpenter it was said to be better always to use a stone narrower than the plane iron and skew the iron in use, as it keeps the stone flat side to side.
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oil/Arkansas stones
- Thread starter Noho12C
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As an aside - in Walter Rose's Village Carpenter it was said to be better always to use a stone narrower than the plane iron and skew the iron in use, as it keeps the stone flat side to side.
(don't shoot the messenger
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https://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/ct/ ... outlet.htm
A couple of Arkansaw stones here ..... and scores of water stones. Divert your eyes if you have a knife fetish.
A couple of Arkansaw stones here ..... and scores of water stones. Divert your eyes if you have a knife fetish.
I contacted classic hand tools. They have a translucent stone. The 3 inch wide is twice as expensive as the 2" o_ophil.p":3tiprheg said:deema":3tiprheg said:
As an aside - in Walter Rose's Village Carpenter it was said to be better always to use a stone narrower than the plane iron and skew the iron in use, as it keeps the stone flat side to side.
(don't shoot the messenger
Would a 2" work fine if you hone a wider blade with a sharpening jig ?
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I've never used one, but I see no reason why not.
Noho12C":ypevd921 said:
It depends. If your jig is the old Record model with a captive ball, yes. If it's a simple wooden wedge, yes. If it's the sort that arches up like a scorpion and references off the bench rather than the stone, yes.
But if it's the common Eclipse type with a roller or the newer Veritas style with a wider roller, it's only going to go in a straight line, at right angles to the edge being sharpened. You can't slew the edge to fit it on a narrow stone. So the stone has to be at least as wide as the edge.
You'll need to find your own compromise between jig use and size of stone. Many satisfactory choices await you, each used by many happy woodworkers.
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
I got by with a pair of 2" wide hones using the eclipse knockoff for a good while.
I can't see how one might find it an issue whatsoever with a narrower hone, maybe for a no.8 iron I suppose, never found issue with honing my no.5 1/2's using the guide.
If its a question of speed maybe using a wider diamond hone with the guide might be a small gain in time, but for a hone that abrades I cannot see any time saved since its best practice to keep the stone flat.
I can't see how one might find it an issue whatsoever with a narrower hone, maybe for a no.8 iron I suppose, never found issue with honing my no.5 1/2's using the guide.
If its a question of speed maybe using a wider diamond hone with the guide might be a small gain in time, but for a hone that abrades I cannot see any time saved since its best practice to keep the stone flat.
AndyT":3pv9jd3d said:You'll need to find your own compromise between jig use and size of stone. Many satisfactory choices await you, each used by many happy woodworkers.
Well said, figuring out what works and is enjoyable is part of the fun.
But overall, what is the best sharpening method ?
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Cheshirechappie
Established Member
Noho12C":3f6xheuh said:But overall, what is the best sharpening method ?
The one that works for you!
A thought regarding oilstones and jigged sharpening - quite a few new oilstones are available in 3" width. Two such stones, one a translucent or hard black Arkansas for polishing, and a medium or fine India or soft Arkansas for honing, on a wooden board with a hardwood runway for the jig level with the surface of the stones, should serve very well.
Disadvantage - 3" stones will be more in first cost than the usual 2". They may need a bit more maintenance than 2" stones to ensure dips in width don't get too deep.
Advantage - full width sharpening of pretty well any straight edge, and with the right jig, cambered edges.
Just as a final note, I've heard mixed messages about oilstones and 'modern' steels. Some people say no problem, some say sharpening takes too long. If you have any irons of D2, I suspect sharpening them on anything other than diamonds or ceramics will be a long and disheartening job; A2 and PMV11 not such a problem on oilstones, but slower to sharpen than 'traditional' steels.
For sharpening (and regrinding the primary bevel), I will use the linisher up to 2000 grit.
Then I'm thinking about a 3" hard back for polishing and putting the secondary bevel, and a 2" translucent for polishing the secondary bevel and quick touch up (3" translucent are too expensive)
As for steels, I don't have anything too exotic : mostly PMV11 and O1, and few items in A2.
Out of curiosity, what oil do you use ? Is 3 in 1 the same as wd40 (the latter seems the primary choice in US)
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Then I'm thinking about a 3" hard back for polishing and putting the secondary bevel, and a 2" translucent for polishing the secondary bevel and quick touch up (3" translucent are too expensive)
As for steels, I don't have anything too exotic : mostly PMV11 and O1, and few items in A2.
Out of curiosity, what oil do you use ? Is 3 in 1 the same as wd40 (the latter seems the primary choice in US)
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I use IPA on my very fine (only) oil stone - it's clean and easy to wipe off.
IPA ? Isopropyl alcohol?
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Yup.
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
Noho12C":2w29kdb6 said:
I'm not sure what the chemical formulation of WD40 is, but I'm pretty sure it's not the same as 3-in-1. It seems a much lighter oil, nearer to petrol or diesel than light lubricating oil. There's no reason to think it won't work to lubricate oilstones, though, especially the impermeable natural ones. Not so sure about man-made ones; I think it might be a bit thin for them. It may just soak straight in.
I used to use 3-in-1, but following a tip on this forum (thank you, whoever gave it!) I tried a bottle of baby oil, which the label told me was paraffinum liquidum. Turns out this is highly refined mineral oil, suitable for dermatological use (which WD40 might not be). When that container expired, I hunted online for 'mineral oil', and found a supplier of massage products* ( :shock: ) on Amazon selling 5 litres of mineral oil for about £25 delivered. That quantity should see me right for quite a few years.
The India stone can slurp up a bit of oil, and also tends to do most of the sharpening work (the natural Arks would be a bit more frugal, being impermeable). My polishing stone (an Inigo Jones slate hone) barely uses any at all. I find that the slate just needs a wipe at the end of a workshop day, but the India needs lifting, wiping all over, and mopping up of the oil that's seeped through and leaked out of it's bottom.
The purpose of the oil is to float off the abraded metal particles rather than lubricate. When a stone is cutting well, you can see the oil turning black with cuttings and carbon from the steel. Pretty well any light oil will do, and there are all sorts of home-brew concoctions recommended down the years, depending on what happens to be near to hand. Paraffin, lamp oil, diesel (don't really recommend that one!), engine oil and white spirit mix (not sure about that one, either).
The old boys of the 19th century used to use neatsfoot oil (still available from saddlers and agricultural suppliers, I gather) or 'sweet oil' (think that's olive oil) on their impermeable natural stones, but the latter is probably best avoided on porous man-made stones, as it can sink in and go rancid. Let's face it - nobody wants rancid stones. Avoid using drying oils such as linseed; the result will be a hard, brown crust if left for a week or so.
* They were called 'Mystic Moments'. That should add a new dimension to the sharpening experience!
That would work
Established Member
I've used wd40 or its equivalent for ages I use an India stone and a hard black Arkansas. I find it allows the stone to cut more keenly... oil by comparison creates too thick a film which isolates the tool from the stone for me.Cheshirechappie":37uxcn92 said:
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
That would work":2so9u8fa said:
Thanks for chipping in with actual experience! I agree that too thick an oil is more a hindrance than a help, but WD40 is very thin, so I wasn't at all sure about it, at least on porous stones. However, if you say it works OK, I'll go with that - you've tried it, I haven't!
Thanks for the infos !
I've read about white spirit and kerosene, but I find it a bit extreme. Might work well but not sure safety wise...
I'll try to find some wd40 (non spray) and other lighter oil and experiment a bit.
I have some mineral oil (for wooden spoons and chopping boards) but it is very thick. Convenient to apply on spoons though.
I'm waiting for classichandtools to have them in stock (in march) and will order a hard black. I'll then give you some feedback
If happy with it, I'll get also a translucent one.
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I've read about white spirit and kerosene, but I find it a bit extreme. Might work well but not sure safety wise...
I'll try to find some wd40 (non spray) and other lighter oil and experiment a bit.
I have some mineral oil (for wooden spoons and chopping boards) but it is very thick. Convenient to apply on spoons though.
I'm waiting for classichandtools to have them in stock (in march) and will order a hard black. I'll then give you some feedback
If happy with it, I'll get also a translucent one.
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Trevanion
Greatest Of All Time
I also like to use WD40 (Little sample spray cans are ideal!) instead of traditional 3-in-1. I find the stones stay cleaner and as TWW says, it seems to cut better than using a slightly thicker oil.
50+ years ago at school the standard was 50/50 paraffin/engine oil. The old chippie I used to work with told me that when he was an apprentice everyone used neatsfoot. If you are using an impermiable stone the thinner the better I'd think - I find IPA easier to wipe off, and it doesn't make such a mess of my clothes as any oil.
It's widely appreciated and commented on by oilstone users that thicker oils are better suited to coarser stones and something thinner is better (or not an oil at all) for finer stones. Thicker oils on fine stones seem to make the steel float over the abrasive, or give a 'bouncy' feel, and the cutting is very noticeably reduced; this makes perfect sense because oil is a lubricant and you don't actually want lubrication where you want abrasion.
In the oily spectrum here's a rough list from thinnest to most viscous:
white spirit
kerosene (diesel?)
WD-40
baby oil
mineral oil or 3-in-One (approximately the same, but mineral oil isn't consistent)
liquid paraffin (this is just another name for mineral oil, but IME tends to be thicker than a generic mineral oil).
What we call oilstones – all of them including the commercial offerings called oilstones by their makers – don't of course have to be used with an oil. And many users of e.g. Norton's India and Crystolon stones, report they cut better when you don't use an oil of any sort, but instead use them dry or with a watery lubricant.
To really test this out fully I soaked out the factory 'oil' fill from my Norton combination stone to try it out and concur, it's very noticeably faster; this again makes perfect sense because in the old days one or two makers of synthetic stones told consumers they could slow the cutting action by soaking the stone in hot Vaseline. For those who have never seen the factory fill in a Norton stone it's like old-timey axle grease, in both colour and consistency. I imagine it's a crude petroleum jelly, which is exactly what Vaseline started out as.
BTW despite the dire (but often unspecified) warnings in some written sources, and given out freely by a few old hands to anyone who will listen, you can go back and forth between types of liquid on the same stone. They won't explode or anything :mrgreen:
In the oily spectrum here's a rough list from thinnest to most viscous:
white spirit
kerosene (diesel?)
WD-40
baby oil
mineral oil or 3-in-One (approximately the same, but mineral oil isn't consistent)
liquid paraffin (this is just another name for mineral oil, but IME tends to be thicker than a generic mineral oil).
What we call oilstones – all of them including the commercial offerings called oilstones by their makers – don't of course have to be used with an oil. And many users of e.g. Norton's India and Crystolon stones, report they cut better when you don't use an oil of any sort, but instead use them dry or with a watery lubricant.
To really test this out fully I soaked out the factory 'oil' fill from my Norton combination stone to try it out and concur, it's very noticeably faster; this again makes perfect sense because in the old days one or two makers of synthetic stones told consumers they could slow the cutting action by soaking the stone in hot Vaseline. For those who have never seen the factory fill in a Norton stone it's like old-timey axle grease, in both colour and consistency. I imagine it's a crude petroleum jelly, which is exactly what Vaseline started out as.
BTW despite the dire (but often unspecified) warnings in some written sources, and given out freely by a few old hands to anyone who will listen, you can go back and forth between types of liquid on the same stone. They won't explode or anything :mrgreen:
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