not just for luthiers
- Thread starter Rob Platt
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thetyreman
Established Member
I was dissapointed that he doesn't use hide glue for the nut, otherwise they look good.
Thanks for that, I enjoyed it very much.
A real insight into the approach needed to work at high precision. I lost count of the number of special jigs and devices needed. Very impressive, meticulous work.
I thought the video production was excellent too.
A real insight into the approach needed to work at high precision. I lost count of the number of special jigs and devices needed. Very impressive, meticulous work.
I thought the video production was excellent too.
woodbrains
Established Member
NazNomad":2b0rizvz said:
Hello,
You watched the video, but still find the price surprising?
Mike.
I would say no, actually they're made with machines and power tools with some very minor work with hand tools. The way they're made is essentially not much different compared with factory made instruments. The main difference is one is made one at a time by one or two people and the other is made on a production line with division of labour.
Eg, the cutting of the fret slots on the fingerboard in the video; some might say they're "hand cut" even though it's completely automatic and takes no skill, it's no different from just pressing button on a machines but just takes longer.
I suppose they're using "handcrafted" in the same way as "handcrafted" kitchens are made almost entirely with machines and power tools.
profchris
Established Member
JohnPW":1olcaw3b said:
I don't think so. What you don't see, because it doesn't work for video, is the individual attention giveñ to each piece of wood. First in its selection, then in final working.
A factory instrument has all the parts machined to spec, then glued up. Job done largely.
A luthier instrument might have a part machined to a starting dimension, but it's then that the real work begins.
Even on my comparatively unsophisticated ukuleles I'll spend a couple of hours on the soundboard alone, flexing and adjusting thickness in spots, and then gluing on and shaping bracing.
In the factory this process takes 10 mins, as all the parts are used as the come from the machine. This is why there is a big variation in sound and playability between "identical" factory instruments (unless made of laminate) because the wood is variable and the production process ignores this.
Players definitely notice the difference!
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
They are absolutely hand crafted!
Some tools have motors, some do not, but nothing is automatic. Everything here was made by 'the craftsmanship of risk'. There is no certainty with any of this; at any point, the whole thing could have gone disastrously and irreparably wrong, and it is only the skill and experience of the craftsman that prevents this. These are wonderful things and no factory made version would ever come close to the fineness and presision exhibited here.
And if anyone thinks they are not worth every penny of the cost, then it is no wonder that the medeocre is the standard by which things are measured today. Like everyone who makes things in the Western world, I'll bet he is on a very modest income despite the high skill he has. It is pitiful we do not value our fine craftsmen more.
Mike.
They are absolutely hand crafted!
Some tools have motors, some do not, but nothing is automatic. Everything here was made by 'the craftsmanship of risk'. There is no certainty with any of this; at any point, the whole thing could have gone disastrously and irreparably wrong, and it is only the skill and experience of the craftsman that prevents this. These are wonderful things and no factory made version would ever come close to the fineness and presision exhibited here.
And if anyone thinks they are not worth every penny of the cost, then it is no wonder that the medeocre is the standard by which things are measured today. Like everyone who makes things in the Western world, I'll bet he is on a very modest income despite the high skill he has. It is pitiful we do not value our fine craftsmen more.
Mike.
Sure there's a difference, simply because a single maker spends more time and attention on a single instrument. And I guess it's the soundboard and bracing that's gets more work.
But my point is about the methods and tools. Both use essentially the same.
"Hand made" and "handcrafted" now no longer mean using hand tools.
Sherman1973
Established Member
Always been tempted to build a guitar myself. I think the section of wood for sound board is something to do with how good a guitar is. This is a skill of the luthier that probably takes year to acquire..... so you get what you pay for and some of that is how experience and expertise!
profchris
Established Member
Hand made is always a definitional problem. If based on the proportion of wood removed, starting with the tree, then almost nothing has been hand made in wood for some centuries.
Maybe we could look at the length of time spent with hand tools as opposed to machine tools, in which case these guitars are certainly over the 50% mark.
The hard part is "hand made" as a badge of quality, ie where the hand work adds value over and above what can be achieved using machines. I think we all recognise it but can't draw dividing lines. Compare:
1. An IKEA table.
2. A table made by me, who has never made a table - "Well, maybe hand made, but ..."
3. A table by Custard - "*That's* hand made".
Maybe we could look at the length of time spent with hand tools as opposed to machine tools, in which case these guitars are certainly over the 50% mark.
The hard part is "hand made" as a badge of quality, ie where the hand work adds value over and above what can be achieved using machines. I think we all recognise it but can't draw dividing lines. Compare:
1. An IKEA table.
2. A table made by me, who has never made a table - "Well, maybe hand made, but ..."
3. A table by Custard - "*That's* hand made".
woodbrains
Established Member
profchris":3exsx4a9 said:
Hello,
The definition is very simple, actually. Almost nothing had ever been made 'by hand' flint axe, coiled clay pot, not much else. So you are looking at something where the parameters are faintly ridiculous. Everything has been made with tools, and many of those tools were made by another, using yet more tools, so where do we say something is hand made?
If we simply mean we have to use our own energy moving the tool about, then that does not take into account the many, totally unskilled, hand powered operations that takes place everyday. Does that make those operations more valuable than someone using say a motorised carving tool to make an original and beautiful sculpture? Of course not. Hand made is down to operator skill, judgement, training and talent and the fact that anyone else picking up the same motorised carving tool, cannot produce the sculpture of the sane quality unless they have an equal amount of skill, etc as the other guy. And even then, it would be different, in the way that each craftsman imbues their work with subtle character and charm. Pressing a button on a CNC machine is totally, unerringly predictable, so when the operator goes on a tea break, his replacement will press the samebuttin and get the precise, same result. If someone went into the luthiers workshop and produced a guitar of the same quality, then the workshop is, indeed a production shop. Clearly no one could make a guitar in that shop unless they had the skill and the knowledge to do so. This is what makes something hand crafted, not just the exersion of energy without assistance.
Mike.
Jasper42
Established Member
I'd be very happy to have 10% of the skill level showed here. Got to be said a joy to watch.
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
What about "hand cooked", which you sometimes see in the description of potato crisps? How does that work? Do you have to have exceptionally hot hands?
morturn
Established Member
So what we are saying is that any item made of wood is not handmade if the tree was cut down with a chainsaw.
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Lots of folks don't bother making their own kerfed linings
You would get scolded on the OLF if you mentioned that
For those who want to see a crazy contraption have a look at ho to do it yourself .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-pdUWoNjPo
That was a great watch, thanks for posting that Rob
You would get scolded on the OLF if you mentioned that
For those who want to see a crazy contraption have a look at ho to do it yourself .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-pdUWoNjPo
That was a great watch, thanks for posting that Rob
Ttrees":32mstcp1 said:
I did it once, and I can see why they don't... but if I was charging 1000's of pounds I wouldn't have used store bought ones.
Also, with a little experience and the entire contents of the StewMac catalogue at your disposal, most woodworkers could produce a high quality guitar. #controversialcomment
... and that kerfing cutter is pure genius.
profchris
Established Member
NazNomad":3pt9ekgh said:
Try it and see! Most builders I know reckon that they started to get acceptable quality round about build number 20.
If you just want it to look like a guitar, maybe, but it has to be a high quality player as well.
