Noobs needs help with hand planing!!

UKworkshop.co.uk

Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

LuptonM

Established Member
Joined
2 Sep 2010
Messages
460
Reaction score
0
Location
Callington
A short intro before we get right down to business ( a long first post BTW):

I am a 20 yr old student who goes by the name of 'Marc' whom is attempting to make something out of wood (no previous experience nor knows anyone who knows what they're doing- whats with these old ppl and they're oil stones and their can of spam under the stairs?)

Anyway I am having trouble making shavings with a hand plane I got from a carboot (a stanley bailey no 4 - originally had beech handles)

I am a little confused since I've never used a hand plane so I am not sure what to expect. Since I am having trouble I'll go through my sharpening process as well

I've lapped the sole with some wet and dry on some float glass to make sure the sole is flat. I also grinded the blade on a whetstone grinder at 25 degrees on one of these http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ax ... rod781392/ (my dad has one since I suggested he should buy one to clean up his chisels as my mum uses them to open paint tins and they are in a shocking state).

I then used a axminster basic honing guide (BTW the projections are hard to read on it since the writing just looks like a blob due to the poor casting)
to fine tune the grinding on some sandpaper up to p500 sand paper.

I then flattened the back of the blade on p80 intiitally and then all the way up to the 0.3 micron paper that workshop heaven sells (I did use p240,p400,p600, p800,p1500,p2500, 1micron intermediate grits to make sure I did a good job)

After the back was flat I honed the cutting edge at 30 degrees from p800 to 0.3 micron sand paper. On the 0.3 micron sandpaper I tried to remove the wire edge by alternating between honing and flattening the back for 3 strokes a couple of times.

The blade could shave my arm hair at p2500 grit, but the addition of the 0.3 micron paper made the 'shave' very clean, sorry Gillette looks like I won't need any of your 'not so resonably priced' replacement blades

After this I lapped the chipbreaker up to p2000 to make sure it had good contact with the blade and attached it to the back of the plane iron, leaving about a 2mm gap from the blade edge, making sure the cap screw was tight and installed it into the plane body

I then sighted down the plane sole and adjusted the lateral lever such that the blade was as close to parrallel to the plane sole as possible.

I then set the depth of the blade to be make a cut as shallow as possible but at the same time to try and make some shavings

Buts thats were it stops, I tried planing oak (I know that planing in one direction across the board results in a better finish so I tried both) but still I am unable to get full length shavings easily and it seems quite alot of force is needed to make any at all. The 0.3 micron paper made things a bit easier as before (up to p2500) I had to put my whole body weight through the plane to get full blade width shavings and these only exstended 15cm at most (ie. not the whole board length) and were quite thick.
Since the the 0.3 micron paper a little less force is needed but the results are not much different
See-through shavings don't seem to be achievable as the blade either does very little or seems to take quite thick shavings. When it does do very little the thinner shavings only seem to be at less than half of the blade width.

Can anyone help???

Here a picture of the plane. I've replaced the tote with one of my own creations and will replace the knob soon(sorry for the image quality- low light). You prob can't see but the tote is now made of london plane

P1060130.jpg



I was also wandering if anyone had some scrap bits of rosewood/cherry or something to make replacement handles for the no 6 I scored on ebay and for a no 4 my grandad has- I'd be happy to pay for p and p, but the blanks for the tote have to be big enough for the lee valley templates

Annoyingly the seller forgot to mention the broken tote, the bent lateral adjustment lever, the bent blade.

You should have seen my dad use a sledge to flatten the blade, just hilarious , nearly as funny as him flattening his chisel backs on a high rpm cheapo grinder
 
Hi Marc,

First off, well done - it's great to have such a detailed analysis of the situation as this allows us to eliminate many potential issues before we start.

My initial hunch would be that the sole still isn't flat. Do you have a straight edge and feeler gauge available?

Failing that, you can identify a big problem by retracting the cutting iron and placing the sole against a piece of glass or even a window and trying to poke the corner of a piece of paper under it around the edge. If it rocks audibly on the glass then you really are in the chutney so let's hope it's just a low spot around the mouth.

Another possible but less likely cause would be an insecure frog - if this isn't screwed down tight and rock steady there is potential for problems.

You mentioned that you were getting shavings with the centre of the blade - is the cutting edge cambered? You may have too much camber on it (half a mm difference between the centre and the edges is quite a big camber on a smoother).

Ooooh - welcome to the forum by the way.

All the best,


Matthew
 
(Ditto on Matthew's comments on your detailed post, most helpful)

When you're using the abrasive sheets, how are they fixed down?

It's (actually) easy to get a cambered edge, even on a perfectly flat abrasive, if you're not diligent about keeping your pressure when sharpening centralised. SOme people prefer cambered edges anyway, so I wouldn't worry (at this stage) about full width shavings.

I would concur with Matthews suggestion - concave sole or loose frog are the most likely causes.

To expand, what happens is that the blade DOESN'T touch the workpiece until you wind it out a fair way.

But.

When it *does* finally engage with the workpiece, the cutting action pull the blade down, either by slight flexing of the sole (if you have a concave sole) or by movement of the frog (f you have a slightly loose frog).

So in either case, as soon as you commence a small shaving, you get a thick one.

This could also happen if your cap iron is waaay loose, so that's worth checking too, but it's less likely.

Have you "sighted" the gap between your cap iron and blade to be sure it's good and tight? This doesn't matter at the moment, but will start to matter when you're making thin shavings.

BugBear
 
I think you have been overly seduced by crazy sharpening procedures and may have made things worse rather than better.
With an unknown car-boot plane I would first have tried it out. It may have been working perfectly well.
It looks OK after all

P1060130.jpg


If not you then start the process - de-rust the sole if necessary (wire wool and oil) and applied candle wax, then sharpen the blade - just freehand a new edge and clean the face (use that old oil stone from under the stairs!). That is often all you need to do. 10 minutes or so.
Then you start working with it and look closely to see why it does or does not do what you want. It may be you, it may be the plane. Either way it's a learning process and far too soon for the full monty clean up, particularly if you are new to it.

PS whats that about flattening the blade with a sledge hammer! They are all bent, it's the design! No wonder it doesn't work. :roll:
 
Welcome to the forum, Marc. Reckon Matthew and BB have covered the likely bases. And I third the thanks for the detail of your post - just how we like them. I'll let the oilstone crack go... this time. :lol:
 
Thanks for the replies guys. I am talking about getting the no4 to work. The no 6 is the one which had the blade bent significantly (it is important the blade should be flush against the the frog right?)

I'll have another go at getting the sole flat and I'll take some photos to show the process. I don't have a straight edge nor a feeler gauge, but as long as I can keep the bubbles on the sand paper at bay I should be alright (I usually use a spray adhesive to hold the sandpaper onto the glass)

Another culprit could be the axminster honing guide since it has a small wheel and will cause the blade to chamfer a bit. I would do it free hand but I haven't had enough, though I try to apply the pressure with both hands at the blade end. I don't think freehand is an option at the moment as I would require alot of practice.
 
LuptonM":18vengbp said:
I'll have another go at getting the sole flat and I'll take some photos to show the process.

If you have no means of checking flatness, I would NOT do that. How would you know wether you were doing any good ?!

What the straightest and/or flattest object you have? Your sheet of glass, a #6, the blade from a combo square?

Whatever you trust the most, check the #4 sole against that.

It's most unlikely you've made it concave. You may have made it convex.

I'm sure your blade is fine; if it's sharp enough to shave cleanly, it's easily sharp enough to cut wood. The lever cap will keep it fairly well connected to the frog.

Have you checked the frog tightness, as Mathew suggested?

BugBear
 
The flatest object is my veritas glass lapping plate. How will I check how flat my sole is against it?

The frog seems tight enough to me
 
"The flattest object is my veritas glass lapping plate. How will I check how flat my sole is against it?

The frog seems tight enough to me"

Using a marker pen, cover the plane's sole using a criss-cross (Diamond) pattern of diagonal marker pen lines @ a spacing of approx 1/2" - 3/4" between each line.

Place a sheet of 120 grit abrasive paper on top of your lapping plate.

With the blade retracted, plane the paper between 2 - 5 times and check for areas on the sole where ink remains. If the perimeter of the plane's sole is left with no marks this means it's concave and if the centre is clear, but the outline still has lines it's convex. If the sole is clear of ink it's totally flat.

------------

Setting the frog forward so it's leading edge rests flush with it's seat at the plane's mouth should ensure the blade sits flat to the frog's upper face. If you re-set the blade so the cap iron is 1mm (Totally adjustable option) back from the cutting edge this should ensure fine shavings with minimal chatter. Re-assemble, so the cutting edge is just shy of showing beyod the plane sole and adjust for a fine shaving by gradually increasing the blade's set while also making certain the blade squarely aligned with the sole.

If in doubt leave it out and check here before moving ahead with further mods, but the above info should hopefully help you gain some headway.
 
LuptonM":1oj3rea3 said:
The flatest object is my veritas glass lapping plate. How will I check how flat my sole is against it?

The frog seems tight enough to me

I note that Lee Valley state that the glass is "flat", although they don't say HOW flat.

Right, it's only 1/4" thick, so it isn't super rigid - we could easily bend our "ruler", which defeats the object.

Hmm.

I suggest minimising the pressure applied when using it.

Support the glass on something flat, but springy; a piece of carpet, router matting, or towelling would serve well. You're trying to support the glass without putting any localised (bending...) forces on it. In aggregate, this emulates a surface plate. This is how model engineers in the 1930's did it.

Cut a strip of the thinnest material you can get hold of (probably cigarette paper, or Kit Kat foil). The strip should be roughly 1x10 cm.

Now, place the thin strip on the glass, and lower the plane onto it. See if you can pull the strip away, or wether the strip is held. If you can remove the strip, the plane has a high(ish) area where you just tested. Repeat this test all around the perimeter of the plane.

Note - you might well be able to get away with less accuracy than this procedure supplies, I'm just telling you the most accurate way I can think of with the supplies you have.

(it would be MUCH easier to test a plane sole with EITHER a surface plate + engineer's blue, or a straight edge + feeler gauge)

BugBear
 
Flattening the sole is just an ultimate refinement for an already efficient plane. If it's not working well to start with then flattening won't make any difference at all. Most planes don't need it anyway, and yours probably doesn't.

I'd concentrate on using it - looking closely at what is happening and how any adjustments make any difference. Try it on softwood - just taking the corners off a piece to see how it cuts. Try it at zero set and turn it up very gradually, and so on. Waste a lot of wood. It's a learning curve; there isn't a magic formula. It's not like a machine where you can set it up and it will work perfectly (machines aren't like that either!)
 
I've started having ago at flattening it with some p80 stuck onto my glass plate. I didn't really lap it before but only lightly lapped it just to get the worst of the rust and tarnish off .

I am clamping the glass on my workbench to stop it moving

Here are some progress pictures. I still have alot to do as on bit in the middle seems to be very stubborn

P1060140.jpg


P1060144.jpg


P1060146.jpg


If I lap the bottom at least I'll know that it isn't the cause of my problem.

PS: don't worry I took the blade out before doing any sanding
 
You're best off leaving the blade, cap iron and lever cap in place - keeping the plane intact and at full weight - during the flattening process. Just set it at a minus zero cut. :wink:
 
Ah - you appear to have excellent access to photographs. That'll help us (help you) a lot.

Please... stop lapping your plane.


I'm starting to suspect it's your planing more than your plane that's the issue here.

Can you take a picture of one of your "thin" (half width) and "thick" shavings for us?

You might also check shape of your blades' edge against your glass (gently!). Just hold the blade vertically, and see how far you have to rock it left/right to make the edges of the blade touch the glass.

BugBear
 
Marc, where are you? Could be there's a reasonably experienced plane user amongst the membership on your doorstep who could sort you out in short order.
 
Correct to previous posts : Its a no 4 1/2 which I kinda prefer as its more bulky feeling

The cutting edge is straight except for the ends which are slightly rounded (I placed the blade on my glass plate and could see sunlight through the tips). It will not rock on the glass mind you.

Heres a picture of my cutting edge (doesn't look very sharp, nor the honing very neat but its the best I can do at the mo)

P1060150.jpg


I had a little experiment with my plane on some spanish cedar. The hardest bit for me is when the blade first engages the work piece as it feels as the blade gets stuck, but most of the time it gets going it makes that 'wooshing sound'.

At very low blade depth it seems to act as a scraper

P1060152.jpg


A bit deeper it takes a shaving but not at full blade width

P1060153.jpg


Again deeper slightly wider but thicker
P1060156.jpg


I made a bit off a mess all in all
P1060157.jpg


I think half of it is probably my planing technique but who knows

Well if anyone can help I live near Ringwood (which is near Bournmouth) and for some of the year I am at Oxford studying (but bare in mind I don't really want to travel far via public transport during study time)
 
Did you check the board for flatness before shifting to planing? Your pictures - judging by the nature of the shavings - give the impression that the timber wasn't truly flat beforehand and this tends to lead to narrower than plane blade width shavings until the flattened area becomes true.

Are you lapping the back of the blade and removing the burr after honing your blades? Leaving the burr intact can lead to variable results in cutting performance.
 
Your problem is the "power devil". You can't plane on a workmate and similar. They are just to bouncy. Has to be a good solid bench.
If you must use a workmate then have the far end tight up against a wall (i.e. plane towards the wall), so that it doesn't move about.
There are various interesting bench alternatives e.g. the japanese beam (thing, wossitcalled) - solidity being the theme.

The shavings look OK so the plane must be working well. You'd hope so after all the fettling you have put in!
Don't worry about full width shavings - the objective is to flatten a board (or straighten an edge). If you can do this it doesn't matter what the shavings look like. I'd worry more about the cut itself e.g. are there tramlines and how do you get free of them? is the edge straight? etc
 
I guess half the problem the fact I have to clamp the wood as it doesn't allow me to plane one side of the wood, making that half higher than the other half.

The blade is not leaving any tramlines and I do sand the back of the after honing it on what ever the finest paper I was using

Should engaging with the wood with the blade intitally be very hard (I am applying most of the pressure to the front knob)?
 
Back
Top