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no78 stanley rebate plane

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JFC

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I got my 78 from ebay and it arrived today :D I put it together ready for a play and the blade fits in back to front :shock: The honed edge is facing away from the cut . Its been a few years since i've used hand planes but i don't remember this . Is it normal ? It works fine .
 

Scrit

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JFC":1egqiygm said:
... Is it normal ? ....
Yeah. Well about as normal as a #78 could ever be, I suppose :lol:

Scrit
 

JFC

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Ok so its supposed to be like that but erm ..... why ? :-k
 

Jarviser

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JFC":30tc08ve said:
Ok so its supposed to be like that but erm ..... why ? :-k
I thought you said it was bevel up (away from the cut) when you put it together? It's not supposed to be like that - or did I misunderstand.
It needs to be bevel down to get the usual cutting angles of a bench plane.
 

JFC

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The blade is spun round from its (normal to a smoothing plane ) position . The flat part of the blade is facing up and is held by the clamp and the honed edge is held to the body of the plane with the ridges facing down , the lever to adjust the plane fits into the ridges and it works fine but its confused me why the blade is honed on the back . Is it for more control over the plane / cut ?
 

Scrit

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JFC

Flat side up is normal for almost all bench planes, fillister rebates, ploughs, etc. Flat side down (bevel up) is the norm for block planes.

The angle at the back is mainly for clearance (so that the cutting edge can do its work) with a micro bevel applied on the bevel side to get the correct attack angle (about 45 degrees for softwoods). Conventional bench planes have a blade set at around 45 degrees from the horizontal, so the flat front of the blade will present to the timber at 45 degrees. If the bevel were placed uppermost it would give an attack angle of around 70 to 75 degrees (from the horizontal), or approaching the vertical, which you'd find very hard going indeed :shock: - a bit like pushing a scraper. Try drawing a cross-section of a plane mouth/iron/bed on a piece of paper and you should be able to visualise it better.

Bevel-up planes such as block planes and low angle bench planes, etc. have a low bed angle (typically 12 or 20 degrees) and the bevel is ground uppermost on their cutters to give the appropriate attack angle - this is calculated by adding the bed angle to the bevel angle - typically for the Lie-Nielsen #62: 12 degree bed + 30 degree bevel = 42 degrees. Thus a block plane can be given a different attack angle simply by regrinding the cutter to a different angle. For most timbers, 45 degrees works pretty well for the majority of planing.

Scrit
 

Scrit

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Scrit":24qt9l3z said:
... 12 degree bed + 39 degree bevel = 42 degrees...
And it would have made even more sense if I were in full control of my fingers...... :oops:

All we need now is for someone to come and muddle the waters by starting a discussion on bevel up bench planes.... :roll: :lol:

Scrit
 

Alf

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Scrit":317v3jcm said:
The angle at the back is mainly for clearance (so that the cutting edge can do its work) with a micro bevel applied on the bevel side to get the correct attack angle (about 45 degrees for softwoods).
Confused neanderthal alert! That is to say, I'm confused. Is that on bevel-up or bevel-down? Either way there seems to be a back bevel involved...?

Scrit":317v3jcm said:
For most timbers, 45 degrees works pretty well for the majority of planing.
If you're using mainly hardwoods, 50° is nice, but not necessarily as easy to achieve on classic bench planes. Bevel-up bench planes now... Whoops, sorry... :oops: :lol:

Cheers, Alf
 

Scrit

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Alf":mvqvi9nh said:
Confused neanderthal alert! That is to say, I'm confused. Is that on bevel-up or bevel-down? Either way there seems to be a back bevel involved...?
Bevel down. If you draw a standard plane bed/iron in cross section it is clear that the back (i.e. face down aspect) of the plane requires that the iron is ground with at least a 45° angle main bevel (measured from its front face) in order to be able to cut at all. The clearance angle is, I believe, a way to achieve this with a margin of error and the actual angle is probably fairly inconsequential, so long as it is less than 45°. In machine woodworking we normally allow 5° to 10° clearance behind any cutting edge depending on cutterblock diameter, rotation speed, steel type, species, etc. because it makes for a cleaner machining operation. As machine practice originated from bench practice I see no reason to question the logic of what works well. So what that in turn means is that the expensive honing jig that so many people use to grind an edge is probably completely unnecessary for a standard bench plane.

The secondary bevel, also on the back as you well know, is to allow an iron to be honed quickly to achieve a cutting angle. It is a lot quicker to hone a 0.5 to 1mm wide cutting edge than a 6mm wide one (the length of a 30° bevel on a 3mm thick iron). In practice a 30° angle has been found to work well for a wide variety of timbers, retains a fair amount of strength in the cutting edge and coincidentally is about the angle you are looking for on a block plane.

Alf":mvqvi9nh said:
If you're using mainly hardwoods, 50° is nice, but not necessarily as easy to achieve on classic bench planes.
Agreed, but even Norris and Spiers planes came with a 47.5° bed angle and 45° was used on a lot of other "standard" planes like rounds and hollows, with 50° pitch available to special order - and how many of them do you see with a 50° pitch? I feel that this is indicative of the relatively high volumes of softwoods and soft hardwoods (such as poplar, lime, etc.) which were being worked from the Victorian period onwards by the trade. In any case if you need a 50° bed angle on a Stanley or Record bench plane this can be achieved at a pinch by adding a 5° front bevel to the iron - but this is now getting just a little bit away from the original subject, IMHO. :lol:

Scrit
 

Alf

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Ah, now where I was getting confused was the duo-term for the back/bevel side. Plus I always think of the back as the flat, bevel-less side. Also attack angle always suggests the angle the blade attacks the wood to me, therefore 45° in this case, so confusion was inevitable. #-o

Cheers, Alf
 

JFC

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:-$ will you two stop it please :lol: Dare i ask if the blade should be bevel up or down in a Record 43 ? 8-[
 

Scrit

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JFC

Blades are bevel-down on most planes, with the general exception of block planes, metallic shoulder/rebate/bullnose planes, etc. (and there are a few exceptions here, too)

Fundamentally if the angle between the sole of the plane and the bed of the iron is above about 35°, then that plane is PROBABLY a bevel down plane. Below 35° it is PROBABALY a bevel-up plane. All of which makes your #043 a bevel-down plane.

Scrit
 

JFC

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Thatll be why it didnt work very well then :oops: Time to get back to basics i think .
 

Alf

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A handy way to know is by looking which side the maker's mark is. Usually (99.9% of the time), the mark is on the side of the blade that faces up when the blade is in the plane.

Cheers, Alf
 

JFC

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If thats the case Alf the 43 has the bevel up like a block plane :?
 

Scrit

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Alf

What do you do with a Norris where one side is stamped "Norris" and the other "Robt. Sorby"? :wink:

Scrit
 
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