No. 6 vs No. 7? QS vs Dick?

[J_SAMa]

Hello, and [insert random greetings here],

So Holland's weather seems to be taking it easy recently. It's time I started building my workbench...
I've been using a Record 05 to do all my jointing/face truing work (thanks again Gary, if you're reading this ). It works fine for short workpieces (less than 100 cm) but I reckon I'll need a real jointer for my 240 cm long benchtop.
Anyways, I'm planning on buying a new No. 6 or No. 7. I know No.7's length will definitely make it better for jointing super long workpieces, but wouldn't it be easier to learn jointing/trying on a No. 6 'cause there's less metal swinging around? I've never touched a jointer plane before so I have no idea...

I was going to buying it from QS (or whatever you call it) until I noticed Dick (from Dictum), whose planes are apparently also manufactured by QS and should be of the same quality. The thing is though, Dick's No. 7 is €50 cheaper than QS from WSH :shock: ... That makes me a little worried about Dick's plane's quality. Has anyone had any experience with Dick's plane?
Going vintage is always an option... But I just wanted to get a taste of modern "premium" plane (I know QS not really premium, but at least they say it's almost as good as LN).

Oh, and please try your best no to turn this thread into one where we argue about moral/political issues regarding QS. I'm trying to get some things done here...

Sam

 

[GazPal]

Hi Sam,

Never a problem :wink: and I know both your #05 and #04 will provide a lifetime of service in all manner of projects. With practise you can shoot edges much longer than 1000 mm using a #05, but if you feel the need to invest in a longer plane I'd recommend your option regarding the QS #7 as a sound choice backed by Matthew's well deserved reputation for customer service.

The plane size I use varies depending on the dimensions of the project I'm involved with, but personal preference has me reaching for my #05.1/2's far more than my #06's or #07's. One thing I'd consider would be the practicality of owning a #7 once your bench is completed, with the primary influence being the size of work/projects undertaken afterward.

 

[speeder1987]

I have no experience with dictum planes, however I do know that not all quangsheng planes are of the same quality!

I believe workshop heaven specify the highest quality quangsheng planes, this could explain the price difference.

You also know that you will get top notch customer service from workshop heaven!

Sorry if that doesn't help you

Cheers
John

 

[J_SAMa]

Hi Sam,

Never a problem :wink: and I know both your #05 and #04 will provide a lifetime of service in all manner of projects. With practise you can shoot edges much longer than 1000 mm using a #05, but if you feel the need to invest in a longer plane I'd recommend your option regarding the QS #7 as a sound choice backed by Matthew's well deserved reputation for customer service.

The plane size I use varies depending on the dimensions of the project I'm involved with, but personal preference has me reaching for my #05.1/2's far more than my #06's or #07's. One thing I'd consider would be the practicality of owning a #7 once your bench is completed, with the primary influence being the size of work/projects undertaken afterward.

Hi Gary,

I barely do any large scale work. I might build a tool cabinet and a garden fence but that's about it. I predominantly make medium to small sized cabinets/carcasses. And just so that you know, I'm an amateur and rarely sell my projects.

Just saw a video of Paul Sellers flattening a benchtop using only a No. 4 smoother... Well, in the end skill and expertise ARE the most valuable "tools"... So given I don't do much large sclae work, and that flattening a benchtop with a short plane isn't impossible, should I opt for a No. 6 instead of No. 7?

Sam

 

[GazPal]

Hi Gary,

I barely do any large scale work. I might build a tool cabinet and a garden fence but that's about it. I predominantly make medium to small sized cabinets/carcasses. And just so that you know, I'm an amateur and rarely sell my projects.

Just saw a video of Paul Sellers flattening a benchtop using only a No. 4 smoother... Well, in the end skill and expertise ARE the most valuable "tools"... So given I don't do much large sclae work, and that flattening a benchtop with a short plane isn't impossible, should I opt for a No. 6 instead of No. 7?

Sam

Due to the size of work you'll typically carry out, I'd honestly consider either a #05.1/2 or #6 rather than a #07. Paul certainly illustrates the fact that #04's are more than capable of producing most work and precisely the same can be said of #05's. You have both a #04 & #05, so the next step is any of the three larger planes mentioned, or (My suggestion) wait a while before buying more bench planes but instead consider investing in a block plane, combination plane, or shoulder plane. Those three hand planes should add up to no more than the cost of a QS #7 , but would see far more use than a #7 if your focus involves small cabinetry projects.

Allow your planned projects to dictate you choice of tools and you'll build a tool kit which sees regular use without gathering dust or being relegated for long periods in it's box.

You can certainly flatten and finish work bench tops with either a #04 or #05. Simply keep your smoothing plane set to take fine shavings and your work bench project is an excellent learning and skill building opportunity. :wink: The learning curve can be just as steep with the larger bench planes as it is with the smaller #03/#04/#5's.

 

[J_SAMa]

Hi Gary,

Well, since QS doesn't make the No. 5 1/2 and the Clifton version is way out of my price range, I think I'll be buying a No. 6 then. I might be buying the Juuma version from Dieter Schmidt, simply because it's cheaper (again I'm an amateur so I need to make every single penny count).

Now about the block plane:
What do you think about this guy? http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Qua ... Plane.html

To my understanding, this plane is the combination of a block plane, or and a super wide rabbet/shoulder plane, right? Does that mean that this plane will do anything that a regular LA block plane will do? Are there any significant advantages/disadvantages of this plane when compared to a regular LA block plane?
I'm rather reluctant to spend my money on a shoulder plane though. The cheapest ones I can find (from Veritas) sell for around €170...

EDIT:
Actually, I forgot about the woodie rabbet planes... Do you think these ones do everything a metal shoulder plane does? http://www.fine-tools.com/sims.htm

 

[Paul Chapman]

Just saw a video of Paul Sellers flattening a benchtop using only a No. 4 smoother... Well, in the end skill and expertise ARE the most valuable "tools"... So given I don't do much large sclae work, and that flattening a benchtop with a short plane isn't impossible, should I opt for a No. 6 instead of No. 7?

I'd go for the #7. Mine is my most used plane. It seems fashionable to quote the way Paul Sellers does things but I'm not impressed with his methods. I wouldn't use a #4 to flatten a bench top.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[JonnyD]

I have no experience with dictum planes, however I do know that not all quangsheng planes are of the same quality!

I believe workshop heaven specify the highest quality quangsheng planes, this could explain the price difference.

You also know that you will get top notch customer service from workshop heaven!

Sorry if that doesn't help you

Cheers
John

Is this born out of fact or substantiated with reviews? Has Matthew ever said his planes are a higher grade of manufacturing?

I have heard this touted about a lot but not seen any hard evidence myself but I haven't looked that hard either.

I have ordered items from workshop heaven myself and have received good service but I find it hard to believe the planes are any better or different.

Cheers

Jon

 

[Roughcut]

If you don't want to spend too much money and don't mind second hand why don't you try Ebay?
Always loads of no.6's and the occasional no.7 being sold.
I recently bought a Stanley no.6 for around £30, it's a good useable plane.

 

[carlb40]

I have just had a look at his sight and the block planes especially seem more like the ones Rutlands sell. If you google the QS block/ rebate block plane, you get various reviews. Some linked back to here, others comparing to LN planes etc. I have read that the planes from rutlands are not as well finished as the ones from Mathew.

Not sure i like the look of those handles either on Dick's planes :shock:

 

[Peter Sefton]

Not all QS planes are the same quality, I have 20 or more in use in my workshop the same quality as WS and have seen various qualities sold by other suppliers which have not been as good as ours. Over the years QS have been getting better but some suppliers do stock and sell the older versions rather than the improved ones, so as with most things in life you do tend to get what you pay for.
In my own tool chest I do have a QS no 6 the second I have owned, this one has better quality lateral adjustment than the previous version I owned, but it is not as good as the latest versions we have now that have the handle in the correct position so that you can adjust the plane on the fly.

The low Angle Rebate plane is not a replacement for the Low Angle Block plane but an additional tool for the box; I have one of each in my tool chest the Block plane is great for general bench work with its three blades. The Low Angle Rebate planes is excellent for trimming tenon cheeks but you would be disappointed if you tried to get it to do all the Block plane jobs. One of my students tried this but then purchased a Block plane from us later.
The Dictum Planes do not look the same as the UK versions I have seen, so they may well be something different or the US versions.

 

[J_SAMa]

Just saw a video of Paul Sellers flattening a benchtop using only a No. 4 smoother... Well, in the end skill and expertise ARE the most valuable "tools"... So given I don't do much large sclae work, and that flattening a benchtop with a short plane isn't impossible, should I opt for a No. 6 instead of No. 7?

I'd go for the #7. Mine is my most used plane. It seems fashionable to quote the way Paul Sellers does things but I'm not impressed with his methods. I wouldn't use a #4 to flatten a bench top.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Hi, Paul,

I think what Paul Sellers does is teaching amateurs like myself how to build projects using a minimal number of tools. His techniques do come in handy when you don't have a complete arsenal of tools like a professional does.

Sam

 

[Paul Chapman]

I think what Paul Sellers does is teaching amateurs like myself how to build projects using a minimal number of tools. His techniques do come in handy when you don't have a complete arsenal of tools like a professional does.

I agree that when starting out you have to make the best of what tools you have.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[J_SAMa]

Not all QS planes are the same quality, I have 20 or more in use in my workshop the same quality as WS and have seen various qualities sold by other suppliers which have not been as good as ours. Over the years QS have been getting better but some suppliers do stock and sell the older versions rather than the improved ones, so as with most things in life you do tend to get what you pay for.
In my own tool chest I do have a QS no 6 the second I have owned, this one has better quality lateral adjustment than the previous version I owned, but it is not as good as the latest versions we have now that have the handle in the correct position so that you can adjust the plane on the fly.

The low Angle Rebate plane is not a replacement for the Low Angle Block plane but an additional tool for the box; I have one of each in my tool chest the Block plane is great for general bench work with its three blades. The Low Angle Rebate planes is excellent for trimming tenon cheeks but you would be disappointed if you tried to get it to do all the Block plane jobs. One of my students tried this but then purchased a Block plane from us later.
The Dictum Planes do not look the same as the UK versions I have seen, so they may well be something different or the US versions.

Hi Peter,

One of Matthew's blog posts says that WSH sells V4 QS planes, do you sell the same version on your website?
Have you had a chance to try the Juuma planes? They are from Dieter-Schmidt and as you know, they never sell crap (and their products are also cheap, in a good way).
BTW, how much would it cost to deliver from your shop to the Netherlands?

Sam

 

[J_SAMa]

Not all QS planes are the same quality, I have 20 or more in use in my workshop the same quality as WS and have seen various qualities sold by other suppliers which have not been as good as ours. Over the years QS have been getting better but some suppliers do stock and sell the older versions rather than the improved ones, so as with most things in life you do tend to get what you pay for.
In my own tool chest I do have a QS no 6 the second I have owned, this one has better quality lateral adjustment than the previous version I owned, but it is not as good as the latest versions we have now that have the handle in the correct position so that you can adjust the plane on the fly.

The low Angle Rebate plane is not a replacement for the Low Angle Block plane but an additional tool for the box; I have one of each in my tool chest the Block plane is great for general bench work with its three blades. The Low Angle Rebate planes is excellent for trimming tenon cheeks but you would be disappointed if you tried to get it to do all the Block plane jobs. One of my students tried this but then purchased a Block plane from us later.
The Dictum Planes do not look the same as the UK versions I have seen, so they may well be something different or the US versions.

Hi Peter,

One of Matthew's blog posts says that WSH sells V4 QS planes, do you sell the same version on your website?
Have you had a chance to try the Juuma planes? They are from Dieter-Schmidt and as you know, they never sell rubbish (and their products are also cheap, in a good way).
BTW, how much would it cost to deliver about 3 kg of tools from your shop to the Netherlands?

Sam

 

[speeder1987]

I have no experience with dictum planes, however I do know that not all quangsheng planes are of the same quality!

I believe workshop heaven specify the highest quality quangsheng planes, this could explain the price difference.

You also know that you will get top notch customer service from workshop heaven!

Sorry if that doesn't help you

Cheers
John

Is this born out of fact or substantiated with reviews? Has Matthew ever said his planes are a higher grade of manufacturing?

I have heard this touted about a lot but not seen any hard evidence myself but I haven't looked that hard either.

I have ordered items from workshop heaven myself and have received good service but I find it hard to believe the planes are any better or different.

Cheers

Jon

When I was researching buying my QS planes, I saw a lot of these comments, but here is one of the threads on here which seems to confirm this to be true (as well as Peter confirming above):

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/quangsheng-or-qiangsheng-t58314.html

Having said that, it is something that I find very surprising too. You would expect planes from the same supplier to be the same, with varying degrees quality (i.e. sole flatness). But differing finishes entirely! I wonder if this indicates that they are made in entirely different factories? Or maybe they just sell different qualities for different prices

cheers
John

 

[GazPal]

Just saw a video of Paul Sellers flattening a benchtop using only a No. 4 smoother... Well, in the end skill and expertise ARE the most valuable "tools"... So given I don't do much large sclae work, and that flattening a benchtop with a short plane isn't impossible, should I opt for a No. 6 instead of No. 7?

I'd go for the #7. Mine is my most used plane. It seems fashionable to quote the way Paul Sellers does things but I'm not impressed with his methods. I wouldn't use a #4 to flatten a bench top.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Not a situation where methods are quoted depending upon fashion, but more a case of recommending potential routes to pursue if budget is a problem, tools are limited, or the type of work covered will predominantly involve smaller projects. :wink: My own preference is to use a plane sized to match the work involved, but I'll not hit someone with a shopping list if I think there's very limited use for a tool after a certain project's completion. If presenting a list I'll provide a brief explanation covering relevant reasons behind choices.

------------

Hi Sam,

I think the QS block rebate plane sounds like a very decent candidate for your list and I can't fault your choice. Especially if you wish to avoid the risk of buying a congregation of seldom used tools. For work of the type you've described - in future - I'd consider investing in;

1. Block plane - #09.1/2 or #060.1/2
2. Rebate/fillister plane. - #078, or #778 (The #778 is a better option with improved blade adjustment and double fence guide rods).
3. Shoulder plane - #073 (My preferred shoulder plane because it can handle all sizes of work)
4. # 5.1/2, #06, or #07 bench plane (Lower numbers for predominantly smaller work)
5. Plough plane - #044, or #050
6. Router plane - #071 or #071.1/2

All can be bought for well within a total cost of £250 via evilbay if you shop carefully and patiently. My last #07 cost £27 and #05.1/2 I picked up for £0.99. Neither was flawed, but both were poorly listed. Simply study the flow of auctions and how much items sell for, set a limit on how much you're willing to pay and then wait.

Numbers 2 through to 6 are more likely to see occasional use than a block plane, but a great deal depends upon the work you'll be involved in and you'll be more than able to determine which you need and can justify once your projects list develops.

I hope this helps in some way.

 

[J_SAMa]

I have no experience with dictum planes, however I do know that not all quangsheng planes are of the same quality!

I believe workshop heaven specify the highest quality quangsheng planes, this could explain the price difference.

You also know that you will get top notch customer service from workshop heaven!

Sorry if that doesn't help you

Cheers
John

Is this born out of fact or substantiated with reviews? Has Matthew ever said his planes are a higher grade of manufacturing?

I have heard this touted about a lot but not seen any hard evidence myself but I haven't looked that hard either.

I have ordered items from workshop heaven myself and have received good service but I find it hard to believe the planes are any better or different.

Cheers

Jon

When I was researching buying my QS planes, I saw a lot of these comments, but here is one of the threads on here which seems to confirm this to be true (as well as Peter confirming above):

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/quangsheng-or-qiangsheng-t58314.html

Having said that, it is something that I find very surprising too. You would expect planes from the same supplier to be the same, with varying degrees quality (i.e. sole flatness). But differing finishes entirely! I wonder if this indicates that they are made in entirely different factories? Or maybe they just sell different qualities for different prices

cheers
John

Hi John,

Hmm... That's an interesting thread...
After reading through it I think Rutland's QS might be the previous versions, whereas WSH sells only the newest... I guess I'll just have to avoid the Rutland version then.

Sam

 

[Peter Sefton]

Not all QS planes are the same quality, I have 20 or more in use in my workshop the same quality as WS and have seen various qualities sold by other suppliers which have not been as good as ours. Over the years QS have been getting better but some suppliers do stock and sell the older versions rather than the improved ones, so as with most things in life you do tend to get what you pay for.
In my own tool chest I do have a QS no 6 the second I have owned, this one has better quality lateral adjustment than the previous version I owned, but it is not as good as the latest versions we have now that have the handle in the correct position so that you can adjust the plane on the fly.

The low Angle Rebate plane is not a replacement for the Low Angle Block plane but an additional tool for the box; I have one of each in my tool chest the Block plane is great for general bench work with its three blades. The Low Angle Rebate planes is excellent for trimming tenon cheeks but you would be disappointed if you tried to get it to do all the Block plane jobs. One of my students tried this but then purchased a Block plane from us later.
The Dictum Planes do not look the same as the UK versions I have seen, so they may well be something different or the US versions.

Hi Peter,

One of Matthew's blog posts says that WSH sells V4 QS planes, do you sell the same version on your website?
Have you had a chance to try the Juuma planes? They are from Dieter-Schmidt and as you know, they never sell rubbish (and their products are also cheap, in a good way).
BTW, how much would it cost to deliver about 3 kg of tools from your shop to the Netherlands?

Sam

Hi Sam
Yes the planes I sell are the same as Matthew’s, the V4 came out in 2010 since then the no 6 has been improved by moving the handle forward, all the standard bench planes 3,4,5,6,7 have the improved lateral adjusters which are solid with a screwed and riveted fitting rather than the early versions that had twisted metal lateral adjusters. The handles are Chinese Rosewood which looks very much like Bubinga to me. The yoke is also better than the early versions and they do all have the T10 steel irons which perform very well.
The block planes are the V3 and are the 12 degree low angle versions with 3 blades as standard - 25, 38 and 50 degrees - and the Low angle rebate plane is of the same quality. All the planes come in their own wooden boxes which are a nice touch and keep them in good condition.
QS do make varying qualities and specifications for different retailers, Matthew and I stock the same I can’t speak for the others but the ones that have been through our workshop in the past have been older versions. I know people find this unusual but why? Car manufacturers make different spec levels with one model with various levels of finish and technical detail and QS do the same, but it is the retailer who decides which price level and quality they would like to sell.
I have not seen or used the Juuma planes from Dieter-Schmidt but on the website they look very nice indeed, but with plane quality the devil is in the detail.
I will PM you with shipping costs today

Cheers Peter

 

[Tony Spear]

I have no experience with dictum planes, however I do know that not all quangsheng planes are of the same quality!

I believe workshop heaven specify the highest quality quangsheng planes, this could explain the price difference.

You also know that you will get top notch customer service from workshop heaven!

Sorry if that doesn't help you

Cheers
John

Is this born out of fact or substantiated with reviews? Has Matthew ever said his planes are a higher grade of manufacturing?

I have heard this touted about a lot but not seen any hard evidence myself but I haven't looked that hard either.

I have ordered items from workshop heaven myself and have received good service but I find it hard to believe the planes are any better or different.

Cheers

Jon

Nothing to do with Quansheng, but I do have personal experience to indicate thet the Chinese will always build to a price.

In 1987/88, I was visiting the Shanghai Pump Works and saw some pumps for a Government funded irrigation project that, given a lathe and mill, together with basic sand-casting facilities, I could have built in my back yard! In the next workshop I was shown some very sophisticated boiler feed pumps for their latest 600MW super-critical power station that were as good as anything my company could have turned out in the U.S. or Italy - draw your own conclusions!