New to the craft - intro & questions on dust

[anaminal]

Hi All,

I'm new to woodworking (and the site) so thought I'd introduce myself properly to the community & throw out a few questions. The name's Chris, I'm 27 and live in Chapel Allerton, North Leeds. I've been whittling/carving for a few months, but now moved into a house with a decent cellar I'm buying tools and making stuff 8) First project is a bookcase!

My main concern right now is dust! I only even know this is an issue due to seeing a bandsaw/shop vac combo on eBay; but I've now read a lot about health problems amongst woodworkers. I'll be in a confined space so this is a concern! I've just bought a bandsaw & want to make sure I'm not damaging my lungs as I've heard these are a hassle to replace.

The Plan:
a) Make a Thien Baffle, these look pretty cool.
b) Vacuum... ??? This is where you guys come in. I'll only be using occasionally, would you go for a machine with fine filters, or vent outside?
The house is a Victorian terrace; if I vent it'll involve posting a pipe through the large cellar window, onto the street. Concerns are, dust might just blow back in the open window! Concerns with filters are - I've heard there are lots on the market that don't work that well and leave the finest (and most dangerous) particles in the air.

What do you do? Any recommendations? Thoughts?

Cheers,
Chris

 

[marcros]

welcome to the forum.

i am not far from you- Kirkstall.

 

[AndyT]

It all depends on how much you intend to do. I don't want to downplay the risks too much, but a bit of diy usage for a few minutes at a time is not the same as continuous production in a furniture factory.

If your only dust-producing machine is a bandsaw, you could get along perfectly well if you:

- hook it up to a workshop vacuum cleaner while it's in use
- wear a dustmask
- use the vac to keep the workshop clean
- go outside for a bit if you have made a lot of dust.

 

[aideym]

Hi I am also seriously new to woodwork, my take on dust, having built a workshop from scratch. The stuff gets everywhere, so I have set about panelling the walls to prevent areas for dust to build up. I converted a dyson for the timebeing and it has lasted 4 months now, you do get to learn where all the filters are on it though. I bought a decent trend mask and connect up the vacuum to the macine being used. I also sweep up regularly. It is far from perfect but it does seem to provide a passable environnment. I am looking at rigging up an electric car fan with an air filter where the radiator should be to circulate and filter the air to help a little bit more. As I used off cuts from a van fitters and freecycle for the other bits, this hasn't really cost any money so far.

 

[anaminal]

welcome to the forum. i am not far from you- Kirkstall.

Hi

It all depends on how much you intend to do. I don't want to downplay the risks too much, but a bit of diy usage for a few minutes at a time is not the same as continuous production in a furniture factory.

My concern is on accumulation; any dust I create is going to stay in the room and then be kicked up whenever I walk past... even if I only make a little at a time, any particles small enough to cause harm will probably pass through a shop-vac.

 

[morfa]

Watch this video, it tells you most of what you need to know:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb5SIZ5hbic

You can buy the 3m 7500 mask from axminster here:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/3m-7500-seri ... rod839416/

If you don't want to buy packs of 10 filters, you can buy filters singly on ebay. The axminster one isn't the absolute cheapest, but it's pretty sensible. I got a medium and it fits me well.

 

[CHJ]

As has been said the type of dust is a factor but even a bandsaw can produce a high percentage of the dangerous fine dust.

I have some comments about the options in the turning help section.
Final conclusions are based on a turning environment and one item mentioned, venting the dust outside, would not be possible in your situation as you would be exposing the passing public to a dust hazard.

Hope the things mentioned add some extra understanding, I don't apologise for hammering on about the risks, lungs can' t be replaced at the local tool store.

 

[anaminal]

Watch this video, it tells you most of what you need to know:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb5SIZ5hbic
You can buy the 3m 7500 mask from axminster here:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/3m-7500-seri ... rod839416/

Like the video - thanks for the link! I've spent 40 mins looking for some clue on what is "medium" and what is "large", 3M being clear as a 5h1tty puddle there! I'll go for the medium I think, Cheers!

...even a bandsaw can produce a high percentage of the dangerous fine dust.

I see this is something you're passionate about. Well, I agree! I intend to work with some hardwoods so may as well have a good set up from the get-go.

Can anyone recommend a vac setup that will be able to filter out all the dangerous particles? I don't have a huge budget but don't want to risk my health (or the health of my house-mates) for the sake of a few quid! Set the budget at around £100 (unless anyone thinks this is insufficient)?

My current plans are to bandsaw indoors - I chisel & plane too but I don't imagine that can produce dangerous dusts? I'll do any sanding outside in the back garden.

so Vac & Filter recommendations please!

 

[Noggsy]

I've got a secondhand Electra Beckum dx with a large corrugated filter on top which is reasonably quiet. Be very careful when buying a dx as the cheaper ones (IMO) are very loud, meaning you will be less likely to use it. This is a genuine concern, especially in a very confined space. Consider building a cupboard for the unit to sit inside (which will need doors and vents), or better still, check out a few running first and go for the quietest you can possibly afford. I've also got a smaller Trend shop vacuum/dx which is quieter still. I think the build quality by Trend is excellent (I've got the Airshield pro as well) and a smaller one like this might well do you for hobby use. Try and go secondhand if you can (the for sale/wanted section on here is excellent for this) and obviously go for the best you can afford. I think you would be lucky to get away with £100, but I could be wrong.

Welcome to the forum and good luck.

 

[mseries]

I don't have much to say on dust control, I mainly do routing in my garage so it is well vented. I use a small cylinder vacuum (Vacmaster) hooked up to my tools with the exhaust outside. I just wanted to say Hi though, particularly as I am also close to Leeds in Morley.

 

[morfa]

Watch this video, it tells you most of what you need to know:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb5SIZ5hbic
You can buy the 3m 7500 mask from axminster here:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/3m-7500-seri ... rod839416/

Like the video - thanks for the link! I've spent 40 mins looking for some clue on what is "medium" and what is "large", 3M being clear as a 5h1tty puddle there! I'll go for the medium I think, Cheers!

Always worth remembering that under the distance selling regulations, you can send the mask back to Axminster if it doesn't fit and ask for a different size. I plumped for a medium also and it fits ok. There's a fair bit of squidgy plastic so it can make a good seal over a wide range of faces and shapes.

The video is good, bit of a USA spin on it, but it's all similarish, so very handy.

 

[anaminal]

Thanks all for contributions so far...

My most recent thinking is - buy a HEPA rated household vacuum cleaner - combine this with a baffle-bin to collect the bigger bits and the vac should sort the micron sized dust.

Thoughts?

 

[CHJ]

......My most recent thinking is - buy a HEPA rated household vacuum cleaner - combine this with a baffle-bin to collect the bigger bits and the vac should sort the micron sized dust.

Thoughts?

It ain't going to move enough volume of air to be of any use around any woodworking machine such as a bandsaw, tablesaw or planer/thicknesser. For those type machines you need a High Volume Low Pressure machine. The alternate to the HVLP would be something like the Camvac series (High Pressure Low Volume {HPLV} ) but you are talking a whole different ball game to a domestic rated machine regarding motor ratings and in your closed work space would be an ear defender essential work environment.

A good heavy duty domestic or workshop Vac as such as the Lidle/Aldi offerings can be fine for working with individual hand helds such as routers where the dust debris field is contained in a small area.

 

[GCR]

Wood dust catches up with some people after repeated, low level, exposure. Despite dust extraction and use of dust masks (admittedly not used that assiduously in my younger days) I now find I am sensitive to some wood dusts - oak and black walnut leave me sneezing even with a dust mask. I now use an Aircap which seems to have alleviated the problem.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I wish I had been more careful in my "youth". To be honest, many aspects of dust exposure were not general knowledge at that stage and mechanical sanding/shaping devices were not common in DIY workshops.

I would advocate the best extraction and masking that you can afford. I found a kitchen extractor in the wall helped clear the air as well (at the expense of heating in the winter of course).

Bob

 

[anaminal]

ok - so what do you guys use? got a vac you'd recommended to a friend?

 

[Hants47]

Hi,
also new to the site. I found this website good reading since the guy had wood dust related health problems and has spent a long time investigating it. Look up "bill pentz cyclone"

My summary for what its worth;
dust you can see is not dust its wood chippings and can be cleaned up with a vac
dust you cant see is the nasty type and needs extracting with a HVLP/cyclone (big) system
dust from MDF is very nasty
bigger machines eg 12" table saws produce high velocity/smaller dust
machining outside helps as nasty dust has bigger volume to disperse in and blows away

Ps handsaws and chisels are recommended.

Hants47

 

[anaminal]

Hi Hants, yeah I've seen Bill Pentz's stuff, I'm convinced on the dangers of wood dust... looking for recommendations of any particular vacs or brands. Am having my bandsaw delivered Friday but want to be ready for the dust. what do you use?

 

[srp]

I use a Festool dust extractor for all portable tools, but for the bigger machines I use a Numatic - an old model no longer listed by Axminster. It's not true that you have to have a proper dust extractor to cope with the output from things like planers and spindles as mine gets used for all my static machines (I don't have the space for a proper dust extractor). That's not to say that you shouldn't get a decent extractor and a 100mm hose setup if you can - something like an Axminster AWEDE2 can be fitted with a filter instead of a cloth bag, and used for a variety of machines.
Bags and filters can be bought much more cheaply from suppliers other than Axminster - you'll have to search through the posts on woodworkuk as it's been discussed there several times.

 

[Hants47]

Ananimal.
I use Charnwood W691 with 5" hose and 2 micron filter - going to be being modified at some time to replace plastic bag with full cyclone. I use Henry hoover when using portable machines eg router, sander.

Hants47

 

[graduate_owner]

Hi Ananimal, and welcome to the forum.
I'm relatively new here myself, and have found this forum a real mine of information.
Regarding the idea of a domestic vacuum cleaner, I have one permanently connected to my Elu (same as deWalt) bandsaw. The other day the blade came off and when I opened it up I was amazed to see how much sawdust was there - i.e. not having been collected by the vacuum cleaner.I'm seriously thinking to improve this set-up soon, although as in your case, my bandsaw is not used heavily.

I also connect a vac (bagless) to my portable belt sander and this seems to work on visible dust, but I have no way of knowing if it collects the really harmful dust.

I have collected 6 assorted vacuum cleaners now, and intend to make a dust extractor using their motors (not all 6) - I read an article in a woodworking magazine on making one using 2 motors and a wood-reinforced plastic dustbin. I'm also thinking to build an outside enclosure to contain it and thus reduce the noise and disperse any escaping dust, although I appreciate this is not an option for you.

I'm not sure I'm qualified to give advice, but what I would say is this. I have bought an Axminster 63mm dust extraction system, which is OK, but only OK (they no longer stock these) and it cost nearly £200, I think. I also bought a Kity chip extractor for my planer which cost £100, second hand, and I have my domestic vacuums:
BUT
after spending and collecting all this, I don't have a decent dust collection system - not until I can site the extractors outside.

So my advice is - don't go the half-way / cheap route. If you are concerned about your health then do the research, bite the bullet and get a proper unit, whatever that may be in your circumstances.

K