Hahaha, I would love to give them that credit.Aidan she weighed a box and complete plane and then did the same with an incomplete plane, blade out. Then compared the unopened boxes she had. Coclusion. The unopened boxes have no blades.
But, nah.
New plane is bladeless
- Thread starter Chipmonk
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But, nah.
Tony Zaffuto
Established Member
I am puzzled by the label on the box, particularly the name "Calvert Stevens" under Record. If I'm not mistaken, the name "Calvert" was used by Record for planes that had "extra" refinements, but I don't recall the name Stevens.
I have a NOS 778 that I bought about a decade ago, from Patrick Leach. It is packed away in my "accumulation" and I don't remember if I have the box or not, but it was a Record. The color of yours looks like what I remember of mine.
These planes are more carpenter tools, than cabinetry tools, and I would expect yours to be serviceable once you locate a blade. Personally, I would try to get a partial refund from the seller, just enough to get a blade. I would think a Stanley 78 blade will fit, and those used planes cost next to nothing in the states. Failing to get a partial refund, I would just keep the plane and mark it up to experience.
I would post a "want to buy" for the blade, on as many woodworking forums as you can.
I have a NOS 778 that I bought about a decade ago, from Patrick Leach. It is packed away in my "accumulation" and I don't remember if I have the box or not, but it was a Record. The color of yours looks like what I remember of mine.
These planes are more carpenter tools, than cabinetry tools, and I would expect yours to be serviceable once you locate a blade. Personally, I would try to get a partial refund from the seller, just enough to get a blade. I would think a Stanley 78 blade will fit, and those used planes cost next to nothing in the states. Failing to get a partial refund, I would just keep the plane and mark it up to experience.
I would post a "want to buy" for the blade, on as many woodworking forums as you can.
Jarno
Established Member
The Calvert Stevens was a very expensive plane indeed, which was probably used as a "halo" product for the rest of the products.
It helps to date the plane though, end 80's beginning of 90's?
I am not joining the choir of "you got ripped off and the seller is a crook". They should have checked to see that the plane was complete, rather than assume it was. If they want to do a partial refund, that would be best (imho), else use the ebay seller protection and buy another one. Enough of them available on ebay, and it is (once more, imho) a very helpful tool, for carpentry and joinery.
It helps to date the plane though, end 80's beginning of 90's?
I am not joining the choir of "you got ripped off and the seller is a crook". They should have checked to see that the plane was complete, rather than assume it was. If they want to do a partial refund, that would be best (imho), else use the ebay seller protection and buy another one. Enough of them available on ebay, and it is (once more, imho) a very helpful tool, for carpentry and joinery.
Tony Zaffuto
Established Member
Thanks for the Calvert Stevens clarification! I remembered Calvert but not Stevens. I would be curious what was done to this plane to further refine it!
Jarno
Established Member
http://www.record-planes.com/record-no-cs88-calvert-stevens-smooth-plane/
Norris adjuster, not sure if they also included the Bedrock style frog adjustment.
All, in all, meh?
Norris adjuster, not sure if they also included the Bedrock style frog adjustment.
All, in all, meh?
Tony Zaffuto
Established Member
http://www.record-planes.com/record-no-cs88-calvert-stevens-smooth-plane/
Norris adjuster, not sure if they also included the Bedrock style frog adjustment.
All, in all, meh?
Don't know-never tried one! Patrick Leach had one on his site a few months back, but it was sold before I contacted Patrick to buy it (I think it was on his site!).
Do you recall the time frame when they were available? I seem to remember maybe two decades ago, and vaguely recall Lee Valley having smoothers in their catalog - any thoughts?
Vann
Established Member
I believe they came out in 1988 and were only available for about two years.
Cheers, Vann.
Tony Zaffuto
Established Member
That's probably spot on, as I remember getting my first woodworking catalogs in the mid 80's.
Thanks,
T.
PaulB
Member
Is everyone here really advocating sending the plane back? It is obvious to me that very few planes of this type will actually have a blade these days as the originals are as rare as hen's teeth. The body of this item is recycled, but not particularly well done, painting over rust is never a good look. The blade for this item was a poorly made affair usually with multiple hairline cracks. I would report the seller. All 778 planes came with a blade, but my grandfather made a new one for his plane from tool steel, which is still in use somewhere in the family, we are all woodworkers.
Bod
Established Member
If the item is sold as "New" or "Complete" then every part that the factory supplied, must be with it.
Sold as "Parts only" or "Spares or Repair" then it is up to the seller just what is offered.
The item should be returned for full refund, or agreement reached for reduction of cost to reflect the value of the missing parts.
Bod
Sold as "Parts only" or "Spares or Repair" then it is up to the seller just what is offered.
The item should be returned for full refund, or agreement reached for reduction of cost to reflect the value of the missing parts.
Bod
Jarno
Established Member
They really aren't that rare. At the moment there are 16 of them on ebay, granted some of them are incomplete or offerings for parts (plane blades, the rods that go with these planes).
Wait for this one:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RECORD-7...190231?hash=item5489dc9f97:g:U~IAAOSwfQlfSp6y
Or buy this one:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...880564?hash=item5953d9ee34:g:dEoAAOSw8RhfJHx2
There are several others, but they are pretty expensive. I paid 60 euros for mine locally, which was in a pretty nice condition. And I also had one in the box, like new, like the thread starter (same box too), for about 30GBP on ebay.
Patience saves you money.
I think PaulB was referring to the blade being rare, which they are. I have spent several hours looking for the 778 spares and simply blades on their own. The only sources I can find are out of stock and not responding to emails. I've managed to purchase a good condition Record 778 on ebay (£57), so despite the fact it's used, it's seemingly an *actual* vintage and has an original blade. I also managed to get a couple of Ray Iles 778 replacement blades from ToolNut and they seem really good (well protected with wax and oils, too). They were only £9 each, so half the price of the nameless replicas, which comprise about 90% of search results (and all having the same images and descriptions - i.e. source provider).
To cap off the saga of the original plane I got from ebay: I sent it back and the refund arrived in full today. We had a couple of parting shots:
ME: Thanks for that. It's a shame and I hope you haven't been had by your provider (whoever they were). I've now had feedback from over 2 dozen carpenters on my forum and there's no precedent for a plane without a blade, but most tellingly there is very little confidence that this is a vintage unit, and since Record stopped making them in 2004 (well after they became Irwin-Record) it seems more likely to be an attempt to defraud somewhere in the supply-chain. They are estimated to be less than 5 years old possibly of Indian origin, since there is an identical black version of this exact model available under an Indian pseudonym. That comes with a blade.
SELLER: No fraud and def record not Irwin record plane - dad says those planes came out of our bishop shop when we closed it in 1978 and his dad had bought them probably around 1955/1960 - he’s hardly ever bought anything that was made after the companies combined - but I totally appreciate your opinion on the plane and def agree that without the blade it was useless to you!
ME: I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm not sure how you'd be so sure that your supplier was not defrauded. There is no way that plane was 60 years old, you only have to look at the condition of the metals, they would have to be kept in an oil bath to stop surface rust and they obviously weren't - they didn't even have a protective bag on them. If you are saying you got them direct from (pre-Irwin) Record's UK warehouse then they must have gotten a lift with Doctor Emmett Brown.
Everything from that era had a much darker shade of blue (slightly greener, too).
The only models that have the cut-away I mentioned are Faithfull and an indian clone. Neither are marked as Record and Irwin-Record's have both names stamped on them.
Now, if I'm wrong about that plane (please see previous pics) being 60 years old, then I'm an *******. But I just can't credit it. No bag, no oils, no sealant, just a plane in a cardboard box for 60 years.
I've emailed Irwin support to ask them if they can clear it up, but from experience, it doesn't always help.
Jarno
Established Member
As we have established in this thread, 30 years, not 60 and it says Record, none of the Indian copies are marked Record or Irwin, and none of them are blue. And the Indian ones have the single prong nicker, rather than three prongs for the Record planes. It is known that the older Record planes, and Woden, are darker blue than the newer ones.
So, as someone who had a, only slighter older (same box, without Calvert Stevens logo) plane just like this, it is a real one, just not a very old one.
But who am I to try and convince you, right? You do you...
So, as someone who had a, only slighter older (same box, without Calvert Stevens logo) plane just like this, it is a real one, just not a very old one.
But who am I to try and convince you, right? You do you...
Cheers, Jarno. Just to be clear, I wasn't saying it was 60 years, the seller was. And I wasn't suggesting this was a 'legitimate clone', if people are selling knock-offs, they're going to copy the originals. I'm not even arguing that was a knock-off (although I suspected it at one point), I just don't know and it was very hard to find proof that it was legitimate.
That said, I still can't credit this one as being even 30 years old. Why would they hold this particular stock in humidity-controlled warehouses for 3 decades and more? Kind of moot, since the seller said it was bought between 1955-1960. There was absolutely no sign of aging and nothing in the box was protecting it, no bag, nothing. The seller said all 3 of them were the same.
Did you buy yours back in the 80s? Was yours this light blue colour as well? i.e. it didn't match the box it came in? Does your have that cut-away behind the blade or does the blade-support sit flush with the edge of the shoe? I've seen a few of these immaculate, light-blue, 'vintage' Records on sale now.
As far as convincing anyone is concerned, you or anyone else with a robust set of facts and sources can convince and the jury is out until that happens (which is also why I haven't reported the seller). I really appreciate your input, I just haven't seen or heard a nailed-shut argument for either side.
I'm all for giving the benefit of the doubt in certain cases, but most crooks thrive on the phrase 'plausible deniability'.
So it's either:
a) a 30 year old original that doesn't match its box, and was kept in perfect conditions but had the blade nicked (as, apparently had its batch-brethren) and the seller mistakenly assumed it was part of a batch they bought in 1960.
Or
b) it's a newer chinese product. My final supposition concurs with you, that it might have been an early Irwin-Record, but made in China and before the switch to Irwin-Record branding. That might explain the pristine condition (i.e. Irwin took care of it). The deal-break was that I could see the same item on Amazon for £10 more and that was a Chinese Irwin-Record with a blade (and warranty).
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Irwin-Record-Rebate-Length-2-inch/dp/B0000DD518
* or c) it's an old item that has been renovated to look new. I'm dismissing this because all the non-painted hardware is pristine.
I'm willing to believe either, but, in the absence of any evidence, it's gone back, they've refunded the money and I'm none the wiser about it's history (or lack of).
So I paid £55 and got this one, with a blade. I'd already bought a couple of Ray Iles 778 blades (in case they disappeared altogether), which seem really good (if anyone needs one, let me know. I doubt I'll wear all 3 out).
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
It arrived yesterday and, unlike the previous one, the fence fits perfectly and is really easy to adjust. My first impression was that it was higher quality than the previous one. Ultimately, this feels like a huge waste of time, but I'm happy with the plane, at least!
Strictly speaking wouldn't the boxes would have to have the irons in them and not in them at the same time.
That plane would look nice and work better with a nice waxed bit of wood screwed to the bed.
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I suppose they were in a quantum juxtaposition of correct wrong-ness.Strictly speaking wouldn't the boxes would have to have the irons in them and not in them at the same time.
That plane would look nice and work better with a nice waxed bit of wood screwed to the bed.
Nigel Burden
Established Member
I have a Woden W78 which is from the period 1957 -60. The remaining blue paint is considerably darker, as is the remaining paint on my Record 76 which I would imagine is from the 1950s-60s.
Nigel.
Nigel.
TheTiddles
Established Member
Do you think we’ve stretched a wave function analogy too far yet?!
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