New kitchen project

[johnelliott]

I actually used a bearing guided cutter in a router. The technique was to lie the cabinet on its back, to mount the router on a board that was long enough to reach across the cabinet, then rest the board across the face frame so that the router is at one end, with the bearing resting on the side of the cabinet and then trim the face frame flush to the cabinet.

Obviously it would be good if the cabinet sides are nice and straight, something which is taken care of when the faced frame is fitted

No need to trim the bottom of the face frame,of course, because that is flush with the inside of the base of the cabinet

John

 

[sean_in_limerick]

good advice - thanks John

 

[johnelliott]

I'll add to the above that having trimmed the faceframe edges flush with their cabinets I then, inspired by an MFI kitchen I'd seen, beaded the edges with a trend bearing guided beading cutter. When the cabinets were butted up together all you could see was two adjacent beads, and no one could see that the two frames were in fact separate. Carefull choice of wood for the frames enhanced the illusion.
I'll post some pics if I can remember how to

So where abouts in Limerick are you? I used to spend time in Lahinch in Co Clare, so often passed through Limerick. Long time ago, though.

John

 

[johnelliott]

Here's a pic of what I referred to above

Where you see the two vertical beads is where the two face frames join. I went to a lot of trouble with this kitchen, the grain matches because they were cut from the same piece. I don't think I'll be going to that much trouble again.

John

 

[sean_in_limerick]

very nice - did the beads make the fitting of the mating face frames easier?

 

[johnelliott]

very nice - did the beads make the fitting of the mating face frames easier?

Not so much easier,as to hide the join which otherwise would have been a bit obvious. It also meant that when fitting the cabinets I didn't have to get the front edges of the cabinets absolutely perfectly flush with each other, though of course I did

John

 

[sean_in_limerick]

Hi everyone - another couple of questions for the experts.

What do you make the drawer boxes out of? I have considered oak and through dovetailing the front with grooves for the back - but this is a lot of work and very wasteful of the oak, as i would want the drawer sides to be probably only 1/2" thick - i have raised-panel type false fronts. What are the other options?

What kind of finish is good for a kitchen - i was going to use Danish Oil, but i would like to hear of peoples experiences of finishes in kitchens - i have no access to spray equipment.

I have some of the doors and panels done and will be putting together the carcases in the next week or so - i will post some work in progress pictures as soon as i get a new camera.

thanks as always,

Sean

 

[George_N]

What about birch ply for your drawer boxes? Very stable and you can either leave the edges to show the ply or add an oak edging to match your false fronts. You could either use a drawer lock router bit (if you have a router table...see Scrit's description in another thread) or just rebates in the sides and use glue and some brads :norm: to hold them together.

 

[johnelliott]

Danish oil is excellent. This process was used on the kitchen pictured above-
Two coats is plenty. First coat brush it on liberally, then wipe off and let it dry. Then denib with for instance grey scotchbrite or (what we use) a stanley knife blade held vertically and drawn gently over the surface.
Then apply second coat , won't need anything like so much, then blade it off, then stop. STOP. No further coats are necessary, and will only lie on top of the already adequate finish.
NO WAX, unless your sanding has been absolutely perfect, the shine will make any tiny scratches very obvious.
That's all you need for a hardwood kitchen
The above only applies to Danish Oil (we use the Coloron brand)

John

 

[engineer one]

very personal thoughts on drawers in kitchens.

most store bought ones tend to have flimsy bottoms.

so i would prefer to have drawers with 18mm thickness
because in many cases they will carry heavy loads like
pans and crockery etc.

there is something to be said for the NK system Steve Maskery
recently built on his chest featured in GWW. You could even make
your own full extension runners out of wood.

as mentioned before there is much to be said for having the drawers
white internally, so maybe 15mm mdc for the sides and back, with a false front out of oak.

hope this helps
paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

What do you make the drawer boxes out of? I have considered oak and through dovetailing the front with grooves for the back - but this is a lot of work and very wasteful of the oak, as i would want the drawer sides to be probably only 1/2" thick - i have raised-panel type false fronts. What are the other options?

What type of drawers/doors are you going for, overlaid or inset? Do you want an absolutely traditional drawer?

If you are looking for a very traditional kitchen then you're talking dovetailed pine drawer boxes with an applied front, either overlaid (easier) or inset - much more work as the drawer/door reveals need to be identical throughout the kitchen to avoid it looking wrong. Through dovetails in drawers will impose a striking visual element on the design. They will tend to draw the eye and to make them work in an entire kitchen I feel you'll need to have a very consistent look - simple design with few finicky features and say a single drawerline all round to avoid it looking too busy. In a single cabinet the through dovetail works - in a large structure such as a kitchen I feel it might become oppressive.

A more "modern" approach might be to use 12mm birch plywood or 12mm beech with a 6 to 8mm birch ply bottom (remember to use muntins on wide drawers). This produces a very serviceable drawer box, especially if an NK runner (updated tradotional hardwood slide) or Blum runners are used.

For the ultimate in convenience, however, I doubt that you can beat the soft-close metal drawers made by Blum, Grass, etc although the mechanisms are available for use with wooden drawers.

What kind of finish is good for a kitchen - I was going to use Danish Oil, but I would like to hear of peoples experiences of finishes in kitchens - I have no access to spray equipment.

Danish oil is easy to apply and easily repairable. Not brilliantly durable, however. So it will do the job if you are prepared to look after it. An alternative might be something like Dulux Diamond Glaze - technically a floor finish (water-based acrylic) but very durable and can be brushed on. It isn't cheap, but you do get what you pay for.

Scrit

 

[Scrit]

very personal thoughts on drawers in kitchens...... most store bought ones tend to have flimsy bottoms...... so I would prefer to have drawers with 18mm thickness because in many cases they will carry heavy loads like pans and crockery etc.

Traditionally crockery and pots and pans were stored in cupboards and the drawers were used for cutlery, tea towels, etc and so needed to carry much less weight. In a modern shallow drawer 8mm MFC is more than adequate (and twice as thick as the cheap stuff used by some kitchen makers), but a traditional drawer would always have had at least one or more fore-to-aft muntins added to give extra strength even wiyh a thin bottom

as mentioned before there is much to be said for having the drawers white internally, so maybe 15mm MFC for the sides and back, with a false front out of oak.

I've made drawers this way for furniture and unless you can apply thick PVC edging (2 to 3mm thick) and round-off the arrisses my feeling is that they don't have a "quality" feel to them, although they are perfectly serviceable. They do have the advantage of being "wipe clean", especially if rounded corner fillets are incorporated (Blum do those), but I'd still go for the factory-made metal drawers over this style. Personal choice

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

ah the differences in kitchen design, no wonder so many companies
can make them.

i agree that traditionally pots and pans are put in cupboards
but as you get to have more senior moments, there are certain
values to having these items accessible in drawers.

my recent experiences of caring for my parents before they died
made me much more aware of the practicalities of kitchen design.
and in particular men use the kitchen in a different way from women.
and we design them??? :twisted: :?

i agree that mfc does not look as nice as it might, and some of
the drawer sides from manufacturers could be used, and maybe
there is a compromise, but again do not ignore the look of the
interior being light and airy, it really does make a difference in
use.

also if you have a young family it is easier to find things,
but then remember the safety features like door locks, and finger
traps, the ikea rubber ones are really neat, and they work well.

it is certainly important to look for both looks and also
practicality, remember you can always hide drawers behind
doors, and give them low fronts like they used to in
mens clothes shops so you can see what is there. :twisted:

paul :wink:

 

[sean_in_limerick]

Drawer style is full-overlay (for my sanity) - i have noticed in the past that cutting through dovetails on pine can lead to chipping (regardless of how sharp my chisel is!) - it probably is too much work for DT's anyway - there are 11 drawers in all. I will be using the Blum - undermounting full extension slides with the soft-close. You guys have much better access to plywood thicknesses than i do. I can get birch ply, but only 15mm thick, maybe 18mm. I had considered MFC drawer boxes but i'm sure there has to be a better material...

 

[Scrit]

Sean

I feel that 15mm is a bit "chunky", 10mm seems a tad thin, so 12mm is just right to my mind and is what the pre-manufactured beech drawer kits seem to use. Have you thought about buying-in pre-made beech/plywood drawer boxes or drawer side section? It might not be "hand made" but they'd still be wooden. If you are starting with 1in nominal oak then you'll not get 2 x 12mm sides it if it by ripping which seems a waste. The other possibilty might be to use a knot-free pine, alder if you can get that as it is generally clear of knots, but then your sides and back would probably need to go up to about 19 or even 22mm. Quickest joint I can think of is the corner lock joint which will do the front corners. Backs are then set into a housing and are slightly lower than the sides ending at the groove for the bottom (or the groove in the drawer slip) so the bottoms can be slid in and nailed through into the back with one or two tacks or gimp pins. This won't work with MFC, though. For MFC drawers you'll need to biscuit or preferably dowel and glue the front panels on - with the fronts inside the sides to take the extra strain of opening.

The back is glued in place and "dovetail pinned" through the sides (MFC: glue only). Punch the pins under with a nail set and fill with Brummer stopping

Above: Typical muntin section with cut-away at front, used for extra support in bottoms of wide drawers. Generally hardwood

Scrit

 

[johnelliott]

I will be using the Blum - undermounting full extension slides with the soft-close. You guys have much better access to plywood thicknesses than i do. I can get birch ply, but only 15mm thick, maybe 18mm. I had considered MFC drawer boxes but i'm sure there has to be a better material...

But 15mm is exactly what you need with these runners! It's what they are designed for. This is because the drawer side sits in the space between the carcase side and the flat part of the runner that the drawer sits on, and that distance is set by the design of the runner.

If you are using a false front (which is a good idea because you can fit the drawer front after you've got the door below it fitted and adjusted, and get it spot on) then consider pocket screws as a joining system. The front will hide the pocket holes at the front, and someone would have to take the whole drawer out to see the holes at the back.
6.5mm ply set in groves along the sides, and screwed tot he underside of the front and back will be plenty strong enough unless severe abuse is anticipated

John

 

[Scrit]

But 15mm is exactly what you need with these runners! It's what they are designed for. This is because the drawer side sits in the space between the carcase side and the flat part of the runner that the drawer sits on, and that distance is set by the design of the runner.

I assume that we're talking Blumotion on Tandem Plus drawer runners in which case the backs of the drawers need to be drilled for the location "hooks" but other than that the main specification quoted in Blum's own technical data sheets just calls for a drawert side 16mm thick or less:

Your suppliers may have told you 15mm, but they weren't right. Summer before last we cranked out a few hundred drawers with Tandem Plus on 12mm steamed beech (before we managed to offload the job onto another mug), so I know it works.

The key point is that there is a gap of 5mm between the drawer side and the carcass side in a frameless cabinet. In a face frame cabinet like Sean's I'd simply adjust the thickness of the battons that will be fixed on the carcass sides to take the runners.

Scrit

 

[johnelliott]

Your suppliers may have told you 15mm, but they weren't right.

Anything much less than 15mm isn't really ideal for pocket screws but 15mm is fine, both for the screws and for the drawer runners. I use these drawer runners every day, and all my drawers are made from 15mm birch ply, and they work perfectly and look good

John

Modedit Newbie_Neil

 

[Scrit]

Anything much less than 15mm isn't really ideal for pocket screws but 15mm is fine, both for the screws and for the drawer runners.

Ah, that's the answer! I don't make drawer boxes with pocket hole screws so slightly different for me then.

Scrit

 

[sean_in_limerick]

Thanks for all the comments and recommendations. I have put a lot of time and effort into the design of the kitchen, but for some reason neglected the drawer cases - i am now veering towards pine, dovetailed at the front, and rebated at the back. It's really not that many drawers to do and i will be doing them in stages anyway. I think the mitre-lock approach is too finicky to get right and i am not sure as to how strong it is. My preference is to avoid butt-joints at the front of the case, which counts out pocket-holes and biscuits.

Any further thoughts on a finish?

Sean