Quantcast
  • We invite you to join UKWorkshop.
    Members can turn off viewing Ads!

naturals stone won't sharpen stanley and qs blade only hss?

UKworkshop.co.uk

Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:

ali27

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2009
Messages
335
Reaction score
0
Guys I have a natural stone that I can't use to sharpen a standard
stanley and a qiangsheng blade with. Practically nothing happens,but
as soon as I use my Mujingfang blade, the stone starts working and
I see black swarf/slurry being produced.

In terms of toughness/hardness the Mujingfang blade is first and the Qiangsheng
blade is second. The stanley blade is least tough AFAIK. So my original thinking
was that the least toughest blade should be the easiest to sharpen, but it was
the other way round. So now I am thinking the Mujingfang blade which is HSS
is perhaps hard enough to make the stone release its own particles which the other
two blades can't do and which is why they cannot be sharpened on the hard natural
stone.

What do you think?
 

Dodge

Established Member
Joined
15 Oct 2010
Messages
2,583
Reaction score
0
Location
Shelfanger
Cant really answer that one, use diamond stone and lapping film on my Quangsheng blades which works for me
 

jimi43

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2009
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
0
Location
Kent - the Garden of England
Use a slurry stone to make um....a slurry! :mrgreen:

I use my green stone (from Leicestershire) to rub against my coticule and they both end up with a slurry. This releases the tiny crystals of garnet which, as you rightly surmise...is the cutting medium.

I think it highly likely that your harder iron is releasing the crystals whilst the others are not. A way to test this is to work the hard iron first and then try the Stanley in the resultant slurry. Remember these are honing stones only and will only put a final shine on the edge.

Jim
 

bugbear

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2004
Messages
13,074
Reaction score
0
Location
North Suffolk
ali27":1jghmzj8 said:
Guys I have a natural stone that I can't use to sharpen a standard
stanley and a qiangsheng blade with.
Since "natural stone" covers quite a wide range, a little more detail might help us help you.

BugBear
 

ali27

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2009
Messages
335
Reaction score
0
bugbear":3j6hp5ey said:
ali27":3j6hp5ey said:
Guys I have a natural stone that I can't use to sharpen a standard
stanley and a qiangsheng blade with.
Since "natural stone" covers quite a wide range, a little more detail might help us help you.

BugBear
BB, it's a japanese stone, from the suita layer. The stone is normal to hard, definitely
not super hard. I don't know what hardness the mujingfang HSS plane blade
is to be honest. It's this one:
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product ... ng-Bao.htm

Their website shows a number of spare blades, particurarly interesting looks
the laminated blade, but it's only 44mm wide. 3mm thick. They also have a blade
that is 2 inches wide and they call it specialty steel blade. You have any info on these
two blades BB?

I am considering buying the samurai laminated blade from axminster. Unfortunately
these are only 2mm thick which I don't like as I freehand sharpen.
 

TheTiddles

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2007
Messages
1,980
Reaction score
164
Location
Wiltshire
One thing to note that hardness and toughness are often polar opposites not the same thing. A very hard material is glass, but it certainly isn't tough, mild steel is not hard but is very tough.

It sounds like your japanese blade is the least hard, sure it's not lamianted and the black material is the soft backing steel?

Maybe try a honing guide, I can sharped freehand but find I end up taking more material off than with a guide, therefore I use a guide. You might be trying to take off more metal than needed. I resharpen A2 blades with a few passes on a 6000 grade waterstone

Aidan
 

ali27

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2009
Messages
335
Reaction score
0
TheTiddles":1fz8jl7s said:
One thing to note that hardness and toughness are often polar opposites not the same thing. A very hard material is glass, but it certainly isn't tough, mild steel is not hard but is very tough.

It sounds like your japanese blade is the least hard, sure it's not lamianted and the black material is the soft backing steel?

Maybe try a honing guide, I can sharped freehand but find I end up taking more material off than with a guide, therefore I use a guide. You might be trying to take off more metal than needed. I resharpen A2 blades with a few passes on a 6000 grade waterstone

Aidan
Aidan I don't know what the hardness is of the HSS steel blade, but on synthetic
stones this one is really a puppy. Takes a long time to create a burr which is much
easier to make on the standard stanley and QS blade. So I would guess its definitely
more abrasion resistent.

What I also notice is that the HSS steel blade will produce slurry of the natural stone
which is easy to see because of the colour. The other two blades can't do this at all.
Wouldn't this be a sign that it has a higher hardness than the other two blades?

Ali
 

GazPal

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2010
Messages
1,136
Reaction score
0
Location
North East England
Possibly higher on the rc scale, but this is where having a selection of natural stones can pay dividends because their sharpening/cutting properties vary and you can match a stone's properties to particular blade types. In normal use a softer stone will tend to cut more agressively than a hard stone and you may find the stone you're using is perhaps too hard for use on the two blade/irons in question.
 

ali27

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2009
Messages
335
Reaction score
0
GazPal":12z6ftu9 said:
Possibly higher on the rc scale, but this is where having a selection of natural stones can pay dividends because their sharpening/cutting properties vary and you can match a stone's properties to particular blade types. In normal use a softer stone will tend to cut more agressively than a hard stone and you may find the stone you're using is perhaps too hard for use on the two blade/irons in question.
I think you are right. I tried the stone again on the three blades and
again practically nothing was happening on the stanley on QS blade.
The HSS created slurry and very fine metal particles. I am guessing
that the HSS is harder which is why the stone creates a tiny bit of slurry.
The HSS blade is too tough for the stone though, because the metal
particles are so small. I think HSS can't be effectively sharpened on
natural stones.

Based on all of this I guess what I need is a plane blade that is very hard
yet easy to sharpen. The high hardness would create the slurry on the
natural to make sharpening possible. I think the laminated japanese
samurai plane blade would be ideal since its basically very high carbon
steel, so very hard and much easy to sharpen. Correct?
 

D_W

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2015
Messages
4,699
Reaction score
91
Location
PA, US
I'll dig this one up because it's got a couple of things that might be useful for someone to know in the future. Here's the points, they aren't my opinion, they're just settled issues that I've learned from elsewhere and experience combined:

* it is actually softer metals that will cause a stone to slurry. Hard metals don't allow any penetration from particles and have no grip. If you have a natural stone and a tool that's laminated, the soft part of the lamination is what pulls particles off of a stone. Pressure is also part of it, obviously, but if a stone is hard, high hardness steels will just burnish over.

* you can sharpen high speed steel with natural stones, but you need to be good at grinding so that you're working a very small area, and you have to have a grasp on wire edge formation and removal. Stones that don't make deep grooves allow an organized wire edge to form, and it has to be removed. You don't ever want to try to hand grind high speed steel on any natural stone that doesn't come from some volcanic formation or something where natural alumina is in the stone (and even then, the concentration is too low). If for some reason, you run into a high speed steel that's not as hard as it's supposed to be, it will sharpen easily on natural stones. That should indicate a problem if it happens.

* Japanese blades that are fully hardened (say, Rc65) will still be a challenge for natural stones that have a mostly silica or mostly novaculite because the abrasive particles generally aren't as hard as RC 65 steel. Using a natural stone that you use a lot, it's very easy to get a general idea of the hardness of a tool based on how easily the stone cuts it. With synthetics, the abrasive particles are so much harder than anything except vanadium carbides, maybe, that the stones don't provide too much feedback unless they load or something on highly alloyed stuff.

One of the reasons japanese tools and japanese natural stones work well together is that the backing metal rips particles off of the surface of the stone whether you want it to or not, and it at least presents some fresh particles constantly for very hard japanese tools. If you have a chisel or plane blade that sharpens quickly on a natural stone, it's safe to assume that it's not 65 hardness, even if the ad copy says it is.

(I actually ended up here on a search to find if the chinese natural stones are slate stones or if they are basalt...I still don't know the answer to that).
 

D_W

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2015
Messages
4,699
Reaction score
91
Location
PA, US
Also, not all high speed steels are the coarse grained super abrasion resistant stuff that we see now in middle grade turning tools. The old tungsten based HSS (T1) is quite finely grained and sharpens well on anything and takes a fine edge.
 

D_W

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2015
Messages
4,699
Reaction score
91
Location
PA, US
It was strange that google returned me UK workshop and that post when I searched for the composition of the guangxi hone!

I don't know for sure why i felt compelled to respond other than the often stated notion (not stated here necessarily) that you can't sharpen hard or alloyed steels with natural stones (you can, you just have to do a fine job grinding, too - and what's foreign to some people, learn to use a strop).

And the hard vs. soft thing. An often stated line from japanese stone users (like real ones, in japan, who make knives for a living....) "I don't need a nagura because of the jigane" meaning that the soft iron will pull enough particles loose that the stone will keep cutting.

Japanese chisels will even wake up arkansas stones a little.

All of that stuff (slurry or no slurry) becomes immediately critical when you're sharpening razors and most stones won't finish the edge of a razor properly if they are self slurrying. With tools, not so much, except maybe gravers.
 

adrspach

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
221
Reaction score
4
Location
Luton
It is known about natural stones that some of them are better for certain steel than others. The harness of the stone is relative as what realy makes difference on them is what is the grinding particle rather than what material is this suspended and how mechanicaly is the grinding done e.g. scratching- Novaculite, rolling Belgian hones. There are hones out hthere which unless your edge is from high quality steel they can destroy it in few strokes (e.g La lune) on other hand Tam O'Shanter can cope with lesser quality steel.
A lot of new powder steels prefer jnats.
 

Tony Zaffuto

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2007
Messages
309
Reaction score
8
Location
DuBois, Penna.
adrspach":3n1jsr77 said:
It is known about natural stones that some of them are better for certain steel than others. The harness of the stone is relative as what realy makes difference on them is what is the grinding particle rather than what material is this suspended and how mechanicaly is the grinding done e.g. scratching- Novaculite, rolling Belgian hones. There are hones out hthere which unless your edge is from high quality steel they can destroy it in few strokes (e.g La lune) on other hand Tam O'Shanter can cope with lesser quality steel.
A lot of new powder steels prefer jnats.
Are other makers besides Lee Valley making "powder steel" blades & chisels?

On another note, last evening, I had to do a full restoration of a badly nicked 2" very much vintage (old) Buck chisel. Had to start with a coarse carborundum stone, then worked through medium, fine & ultrafine Spyderco stones. Went quickly, and was not a chore at all-love those vintage steels!
 

D_W

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2015
Messages
4,699
Reaction score
91
Location
PA, US
I dont' think there are large makers making boutique steels, but there are boutique makers offering - especially - extra thick irons, etc.

Agree on the caborundum and the vintage steels. The straight up norton crystolon doesn't get as much press as it should. Most of the people chasing a 150 grit synthetic waterstone would be better off with a crystolon stone.
 
Top