Multico TM3 SET Various Roles?

[pollys13]

I'm intrigued , so just out of curiosity and perhaps a bit of forward planning.
What sort of things can one do with these machines? Types of heads and cutters that can be used with it? From what I gather, so far, they are quite versatile. Be nice if people could explain this versatility to me?
Cheers people,
Peter.

Problems are only challenges waiting to be overcome and one becomes stronger through so doing.

 

[tomatwark]

Peter

With a set of these on it http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogu ... =2&c2id=31

You can do straight shouldered tenons and scribed ones without changing the block.

It means that the doors you were describing become easy.

One big advantage is the foot print of the machine is about 3 ft sq , so fits in a small workshop nicely.

 

[deema]

The multico will as highlighted do all sorts of tenons including offset tenons where one side of the tenon is not as deep as the other. The machine comes is single phase as well as 3 phase, and you can find secondhand machines with the whithill blocks on them already. You can also get a 9 degree block, there are some of eBay (been in ages) at the moment which are used for window frames and door frames, alternatively whitehill do cutters that will perform the same task. There was also produced a set of blocks that produce comb sash joints. Again there has been a (I believe partialh set on eBay for months now so I don't think I'm breaking any gentlemanly behaviour.

The machine is more difficult to setup that for instance the Sedgwick Tesh machines, as the rise / fall adjustment of the two cutter heads is Independant, where as the Sedgwick allows you to set the tenon width and then move both blocks up and down together. However, after a bit of use and fiddling around to get the hang of it it's fairly easy to dial in.

The chip extraction if its original I find works well. The guarding on these old machines does not meet modern standards and normally the motors don't stop in the prescribed time. This can al be fixed, but at a cost higher normally than a secondhand Sedgwick (modern machine).

For serious door production where the panel groove does not match the thickness if the tenon you will need to do two setups, one to scribe and one to cut the tenon to thickness. A three headed machine (such as a Sedgwick Tesh 3) can do this in one pass.

I think you can find Multico for c£1500~£2000 and a Sedgwick for for about £1000 more. If space is premium you can't beat a Multico and if you can so are the extra bit of room the Sedgwick is a brilliant machine

 

[katellwood]

wouldn't be without mine, restored it myself with new motors from Axminster. take a look

multico-tenoner-restoration-t62806.html

have upgraded the extraction and the fence (used a piece of aluminium extrusion)

 

[pollys13]

[quote="deema"

" You can also get a 9 degree block, there are some of eBay (been in ages) at the moment which are used for window frames and door frames, alternatively whitehill alternatively whitehill do cutters that will perform the same task."

How does the 9 degree block or the Whitehill cutters come into play for window construction? I have seen sash frames with what I think are comb joints, look a bit to me like offset tenons? Is a comb joint best to use for sash frames, or what others might be used and why?

" and you can find secondhand machines with the whithill blocks on them already " Yes I was reading about that, not the old illegal ones.
I also read the HSE leaflet about how long the blocks can take to stop so an important safety consideration is to have a brake on the machine.

Would a Multico be a very useful to help me make my replacement windows?Mine are 1930s and all rotted out and paint peeling off.
I'm thinking, flush casement, one side opener, a static dead sash next to that and one top opener.

I didn't see much of a selection of moulding cutter designs with matching scribes. Maybe I wasn't looking in the right place?

 

[pollys13]

wouldn't be without mine, restored it myself with new motors from Axminster. take a look

multico-tenoner-restoration-t62806.html

have upgraded the extraction and the fence (used a piece of aluminium extrusion)

Oh yes I saw that, really nice job, like new....... very pretty too
Seriously though, is much better to have nice machines and tools. Sounds a bit silly perhaps but I love the machines I have, ( they also cost me a fair bit new too ) wax the iron tables, my planes and other stuff are kept in an airtight box with moisture absorbers.
I also bought a Which magazine rated Best Buy dehumidfier came with a 3 year warranty.

As I say you, did a really nice job, work of art so I know where to come in the future.

 

[pollys13]

Peter

With a set of these on it http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogu ... =2&c2id=31

You can do straight shouldered tenons and scribed ones without changing the block.

It means that the doors you were describing become easy.

One big advantage is the foot print of the machine is about 3 ft sq , so fits in a small workshop nicely.

OK thanks for that , I'm not clear on the size specification they give. I have a feeling the cutter is 125mm long. Not 125mm diameter and 65mm long cutter. That 2nd hand Tormek sharpening jig for the wetstone grinder I got can only take up to 100mm long spindle knives.
If I've misunderstood the sizing, are there alternative blocks that use 100mm knives I can then resharpen them?

 

[Mike Jordan]

Mine is the best piece of kit Ihave ever bought, I have 9,12,and 20 degree scribe cutters and matching spindle moulder cutters to run with a 125mm rebate block. The machine stops within 10 seconds so hasn't got electronic braking. I much prefer the indipendant movement of the heads rather than the Sedgwick method.
If you look at the Whitehill catalogue there are plenty of standard scribe cutters for ovolo and other moulds, failing that they will make any cutters you need both for the tenoner and spindle moulder.

 

[pollys13]

Mine is the best piece of kit Ihave ever bought, I have 9,12,and 20 degree scribe cutters and matching spindle moulder cutters to run with a 125mm rebate block. The machine stops within 10 seconds so hasn't got electronic braking. I much prefer the indipendant movement of the heads rather than the Sedgwick method.
If you look at the Whitehill catalogue there are plenty of standard scribe cutters for ovolo and other moulds, failing that they will make any cutters you need both for the tenoner and spindle moulder.

Why 9, 12 and 20 degree angles? "also why do you prefer the independent movement of the heads rather than the Sedgwick method?
Thanks,
Peter.

 

[deema]

The Whithill scribe cutters can be found
http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogu ... =1&c2id=14

When making windows, door frames at some point you will need to tenon into the call or a horizontal surface where rain will collect. These surface are normally profiled to at least 9 degrees to allow water to run off them. The cutters are used to profile the tenon cheeks to form a water tight joint.

A tenoner is a very useful machine, I use mine all of the time. It will definitely help with making the windows, but equally you could do it by hand, however it would take longer if you have list of windows to do. The main advantage is if you have a number of pieces to make, you can setup once and make all the joints exactly the same, consistent and a perfect fit. The routine as far as possible is
Mark out

Plane and thickness to size
Cut to length
Mark out
Mortise: The Mortimer can follow a profile if not done first and cause joints to be off square
Tenonon: reduces breakout as it's very time consuming to create a backing board of the same profile
Profile
Finish any panels completely as the edges in the grooves will show as the wood moves
Finish the grooves if external
Glue up
Finish

 

[ColeyS1]

Only thing I'd add is if you can find a tenoner that spins the other way, breakout isn't an issue. Changing from one that smash's the back out, to one that cuts the shoulders and scribes the cheeks makes life alot easier. If required all the moulds and rebates can be done at the same time, then mortice and tenon afterwards- perhaps if someone else is waiting to use the machine.
I've always done the 9 degree cill cuts using the trenching facility on the chopsaw.
Think I paid £1600 for the tenoner. It's exactly the same as a 'holytek 152' various copies, just different badges. Good machine if you can find one. -cut off saw, scribing head.

Coley

 

[Mike Jordan]

The different angles are normally on the inside edges doors, windows etc and give different appearances just as the ovolo mould does if that is what you prefer. My preference for heads that move individually is just a personal preference, my learning was done on the conventional machines which have full control in both height and lateral movement, you can have the longer shoulder on the top or bottom. I looked at the Sedgewick machine and rejected it because of size of footprint and I seem to remember that the staggered shoulders only worked one way up.( not certain if that was the case, it was twenty years ago!) I like Sedgwick machines but that one wasnt what I needed.

 

[tomatwark]

Peter

The blocks are 125mm diameter

You have 2 of them top and bottom the tenon passes between

See attached pic of my machine.

And if you look at the cutters for the Multico on Whitehills site it tells you which moulding cutters to use with them.

 

[tomatwark]

With respect for the stopping time, my old machine was not brake and stopped in about 10 seconds on its own, the HSE are referring to the bigger Wadkin type machines which can go on for a long time because the block are mounted directly on the motor spindles.

That said my current Multico TM3 is braked because I employ staff.

One thing I would do though is fit a single stop button which kills the power to both heads, as it is easy not switch one off if you are in a hurry, it cost me about £ 70 for the switch and sparkie to wire it.

 

[pollys13]

Peter

The blocks are 125mm diameter

You have 2 of them top and bottom the tenon passes between

See attached pic of my machine.

And if you look at the cutters for the Multico on Whitehills site it tells you which moulding cutters to use with them.

OK thanks so if I were to get a machine at some stage I could resharpen the knives.

 

[Mike Jordan]

The TCT inserts for the blocks
Are not sharpened but replaced as required. Each blade has two cutting edges to allow them to be reversed. New blades are about £1.50 / £2.00 each in boxes of Ten

 

[pollys13]

" When making windows, door frames at some point you will need to tenon into the call or a horizontal surface where rain will collect. These surface are normally profiled to at least 9 degrees to allow water to run off them. The cutters are used to profile the tenon cheeks to form a water tight joint. "
Can you link to an image or diagram so I might more clearly understand what you mean?
" to tenon into the call " What do you mean by this or is it a typo?
Thanks,cheers deema

 

[Mike Jordan]

I think you are right it's a typo for cill.
The statement is true though, in all good quality external joinery there are no level flat surfaces on which water can stand and eventually soak in. 9 degrees of slope is considered the minimum needed to shed water.

 

[pollys13]

The Whithill scribe cutters can be found
http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogu ... =1&c2id=14

Tenoners sound like very interesting machines versatile and fun to use.Would be nice to have one but unaffordable just at the moment.
" A tenoner is a very useful machine, I use mine all of the time. It will definitely help with making the windows, but equally you could do it by hand,"
I need to make a couple of exterior replacement house doors, so moulding strips cut to length and pinned on. I don't think would do because of water ingress.
Uum,ok so to do it by hand, I have some ideas but what hand tools, procedures, hand planes use whatever would I need to familiarize myself with to be able to make my replacement windows and say couple of exterior house doors?

I know a little bit about things like twin tenons being used on 5 inch + door rails,rule of 3rds, haunching, racking- twist and stuff like that. Have various joinery books old and new that cover jointing and other things.

I have 16 inch 3 hp bandsaw fitted with a Kreg precision fence with micro adjust, Draper 1 hp cabinet stand mortiser, Axminster cabinet saw, Metabo, Electa Beckum clone planer thicknesser, floor standing pillar drill, Dewalt 733 thicknesser, floor standing pillar drill various other bits and bobs, dead blow hammer, pipe clamps, other clamps digital protractor, digital height gauge, precision engineers squares, Veritas precision straight edge. Also have the Axminster Rider shoulder plane,The Rider No 5 jack plane and Rider block plane. Oh and also the workbench I 'm still in the process of getting organised to make.The spindle is currently mothballed and off limits until I'm sure I know how to use safely and properly.
I have a universal size adjustable size bobbin sander for the pillar drill. Though have been toying with the idea of getting one of those around 100 quid oscillating bobbins. I think if need that option can make do with the pillar drill.

I'm afraid my woodworking is a bit all over the place, sort of buying a machine here, buying a machine there, learning about a technique here and another one there I'm hoping people will be kind enough to help fill in the gaps and make some things less esoteric and more coherent. I have tried goggling joinery terms so I could more clearly try to understand some of the joinery terms used but still many of the terms I don't understand. It took me ages to get an idea of what the English equivalent of American sticking and cope were and grasp it.
Peter.

 

[pollys13]

Only thing I'd add is if you can find a tenoner that spins the other way, breakout isn't an issue. Changing from one that smash's the back out, to one that cuts the shoulders and scribes the cheeks makes life alot easier. If required all the moulds and rebates can be done at the same time, then mortice and tenon afterwards- perhaps if someone else is waiting to use the machine.
I've always done the 9 degree cill cuts using the trenching facility on the chopsaw.
Think I paid £1600 for the tenoner. It's exactly the same as a 'holytek 152' various copies, just different badges. Good machine if you can find one. -cut off saw, scribing head.

Coley

I've always done the 9 degree cill cuts using the trenching facility on the chopsaw. Can you explain that a bit I know about trenching.

Think I paid £1600 for the tenoner. It's exactly the same as a 'holytek 152' various copies, just different badges. Good machine if you can find one. -cut off saw, scribing head.
What are the other rebadged names they go by, available single phase?
Cheers.