Multico CPT planer thicknesser Wiring diagram.

[Cegidfa]

Hello Merlin,

That’s better.

So, in the full frontal pic, :shock: there is a wire (buff coloured) going from conn. 95 on the left hand contactor. This is the top connection on the overload unit above the red button. This appears to go to the r/h contactor top left connection with a black link wire.

The top A1 coil connection on 2C appears to go to the top r/h connection with a black link.
Could you verify that please.

Could you also take another pic of the top connections, as you did before, but this time move the red yellow and blue wires so that they go straight forward.This way I can see the black link wires that take the power from 1C to 2C.

I should have asked this in the first place.. (homer) . But I just wanted to make sure that the control wiring was as it should be.

Regards.....Dick.

Actually, you didn’t e-mail me pics of you family, so you are safe. :wink:

Oops, I forgot you mentioned the link. Ignore that for now. That was for changing the coils to a lower voltage, with the aid of a neutral connection. But you have 415v coils so don't worry.

 

[merlin]

Hello Dick,

You are quite right the wire from 95 goes to C2 top left (1) with a black link wire going to 1 on C1.

The A1 on 2C does go to the top right (3) with a black link wire going to 3 on C1.

Cheers, Merlin

 

[Tony Spear]

3kv and 1Mw...ooh er big boys toys

Ho yus indeedy!

How about 1.2mW slip ring machines with rotor resistance starters? In Nigeria of all places!

I was contracted as a Consultant to carry out a full hydraulic and mechanical of that particular pump station and to try and establish the reasons for the motors burning out. I'd already worked out what the problem was before travelling out there. A bad design and pump specification by the original Contractor which meant that when only one or two pumps were running the motors would be heavily overloaded. Knowing the Nigerian psyche, when I was carrying out the tests, I knew that the Water Board and Consultant's people would be watching me and my instruments, so I told my Client's electrical engineer to nip next door on the quiet, into the control room and have a look at the overloads. Sure enough: 135% of FLC! :shock:

 

[Cegidfa]

Thanks for that,

Oh pipper, That means that the L2 has not been used...apparently.

Ok. Last test.

I hope that you have more connectors, as I would like you to disconnect some wires.
I know that you have checked the wiring between the Transwave and the starter, but could you humour me. :evil:

1- Remove 1C motor connections 2T1- 4T2 and 6T3 and fit a connector to each so that they are safe.

2 - Then open the Transwave and remove the L2 ‘out’ wire (that goes to the starter) and fit a connector.

3 - Press the start button for the Cutter head only.

4 - Now you can observe the coil without the noise - if the thing works. I’m hoping it won’t.

This will prove beyond a doubt whether the L2 from the Transwave is being used in the control circuit.
And once again, something I should have asked you to do first, but.....

The reason for my long winded approach was to ascertain whether I should be asking you to do these things. Some people get in a pickle when confronted with electrics - especially when it’s 3 phase.
But you have shown yourself to be comfortable doing the things that I ask.

So, where do we go from here?

If the removal of L2 in the Transwave stops the starter working then the problem is probably solved (as per Bobs advice).

At this point you should swap the L2 and L3 wires in the Transwave.
This will put the L3 feed to the starter on the coil connection - as it should be.

If the contactor doesn't pull in, put the wires back where they were (in the Transwave), and then swap L1 and L2. It all depends on which wires are crossed - if they are.

Repeat test 3 and see if the coil stays cool. Ok. that’s your homework for today. :roll:

It may be appropriate before carrying out test 3 to walk round the planer widdershins, muttering a suitable incantation, such as ‘work you bas......

Being the good maintenance electrician that I’m not, I should have advised you in capital letters to fully isolate the machine before carrying out any of the above. :shock:
But I get the impression that you are perfectly capable, so I didn’t. Not to mention that I keep getting replies. :wink:


Regards...Dick.
Oops. forgot to mention. If it works, you will have to swap any two motor wires on each contactor to keep the same direction as before.

Hello Tony,

I can’t resist it - you said 1.2 milliwatts, that would be a very small motor.
135% FLC...There's nowt like close current control...and that wasn't
We used to use rotor resistance starters in the bakery, and the resistor boxes used to fill with flour and cook - a lovely smell.
The mixing blades were mounted horizontally and an operator used to have to go in and clean them every so often - until another operator for some unaccountable reason decided to inch the blades round - not a pretty sight. You can tell that this was pre health and safety.

 

[merlin]

Well done that and guess what? The thing works, the connector shoots in as normal!

I have not changed any thing else at this point.

Cheers, Merlin

 

[kirkpoore1]

Well done that and guess what? The thing works, the connector shoots in as normal!

I have not changed any thing else at this point.

Cheers, Pete

Pete:

I've been following along with this, having dealt with similar matters on some of my machines. When faced with a (now) intermittent problem like you're having, you should go back through and make sure all your wire connections are tight. Loose connections can create some odd effects. I've had cases where coils didn't want to latch (or worse, didn't want to shut off) due to dirty contacts, but the symtoms were different than what you're showing.

Kirk

 

[merlin]

Hello Kirk,

I have double checked all the connections and cleaned out all the point connections in the starters, I will however give it another go tomorrow.

Cheers, Merlin.

 

[Cegidfa]

Hello Pete,

Ok, so we have proved that L2 isn’t used in the control circuit.

Did you leave the contactor energised for long enough to heat the coil - I think that you said it was about ten minutes. If you didn’t, could you repeat test three and let us know what happens.

Regards....Dick.

 

[merlin]

i'm back again Dick,

Well I left it on for a good 20mins checking it every now and again and it did not get hot, I would say it got warm.
( When I say the coil I mean the laminated steel part and the steel clip that holds the starter together)
Last time it got so hot you could not get near it.


Cheers, Merlin

 

[Cegidfa]

Morning Merlin,

Contactors always get quite warm; its a function of using current; but not so hot that you can smell them :shock:

You haven’t mentioned it, but do the contactors buzz at all? A quiet hum is ok.
If it was loud, this would indicate that what are known as the shading rings are cracked.
These are pieces of copper embedded in the laminated pole pieces (to stop eddy currents). This would make the coil run hot too.

Hmmm, I was wondering if the maintaining contact was dirty. That is the one that is ‘under’ the ‘start‘ contact that you press, that keeps the coil energised when you remove your finger.
Modern block contactors are not normally designed to be stripped down and the contacts cleaned, but you could try and polish them with fine emory paper or the like. You would need to do the fixed and the moving contacts. Not forgetting to clean all the dross away.

There is a possibility that you bought the machine with the problem already there.
Which would mean that you would need to buy two new contactors and start afresh (you won’t need to buy the overload units at the bottom.
Just make a careful note of where all the wires go and swap them one at a time. Yo will be good at that by now

I’m here tomorrow, but will be off on holiday for just under two weeks in sunny Antiquera, being 'dragged' round the Alhambra and Generalife Gardens. :shock:
The only other thing that I can think of is to measure the current in the coil and contact Brook to see if it is in spec - do this with the drives connected - and without.

Whilst it is an extra expense, two new contactors would mean that you can forget about maintenance for a long time.



If anyone out there has any more ideas please feel free to join in.

I just get the feeling that the coils have been cooked in a past ownership/or, that the units are at the end of their working life.

Do let us know how you get on.

Good luck Merlin.....Dick.

Oops, Sorry Kirk, forgot to say hello :roll:

 

[Cegidfa]

Hello Merlin,

I have just realised that your last e-mail went into the junk folder - the others didn't :evil:
That pic showed that the black links are ok. Which we now know to be true :wink:

One thing that you can try is to check with your meter, on continuity/resistance, whether the spare contact to the left of the start/maintain contact (the middle one on each contactor) are open or closed.
These are the 'front' contacts that have no wire in the terminals.
If it is normally open (with the contactor de-energised), you could link a piece of wire between the top start connection in the latest pic. and the adjacent connection to the left.
Repeat this on the bottom of the contactor - I hope that this makes sense.

What you will have done is connect another contact path in parallel with the suspect one.
This will give a clean fresh path for the current; it might help. Then connect everything back and run the motor to see if the coil still heats up.
If this works, carry out the same procedure on 2C.

I still feel that what you have is past it's sell by date, and need new contactors, but it is worth a try.
It has certainly been interesting trying to fault find by forum...if only you hadn't been so far away.
I would have happily visited, as a 'coat of looking at', first hand is so much quicker. :wink:
It was good to give my 'little grey cell' a workout after being retired for 6 years.
Don't hesitate to ask more questions when I get back, I'm happy to help.

Good luck....Dick.

 

[kirkpoore1]

Merlin:

My personal philosophy in these little problem analysis situations is to take them one step at a time. Since we now know that the coil itself seems to be working without overheating, there are two likely situations--(1) You've fixed it, or (2) It's something else. Our most professional commenter is off to use his super powers to personally solve the Spanish debt crisis, so my suggestion is to hook it back up to the motor and try running again, watching the temperature closely. It's unlikely you'll cook anything that isn't already cooked, and if the act of messing around with the wires has solved it, then you're good to go. If it heats back up, use Dick's suggestion to bypass the contact path.

Then report back, and we'll mull over it again.

Kirk
who's wondering if Dick is taking his wife to Spain to forget his shop trauma, or the reverse.

 

[merlin]

Hello, Dick,

I have spent hours today cleaning up and checking that little creamy coloured box!

All the contacts are like or indeed new the coils etc are spotless and everything is working as it should, I dident finish until later on today so apart from putting a few bits of timber through I havent done much with it.

It will get a good work out on Monday as I am going to put 2 4.8m lengths of 200 x 100 through it so watch this space.

If thats no good I will have to bite the bullit and fit 2 new contactors, a shame as I like to keep things original.

Thanks very much for all your help with this, I must admit it has been intresting and always nice to talk with people that know what they are on about - there are quite a few of them on here which in itself is good to know in this day and age. ( sound like my dad now )

I dare say I will have more questions on your return so have a great time away and I will let you know how I get on.

Best regards, Merlin


Hello Kirk,

I agree with what you say and will give it a go on Monday and let you know
what happens.

Cheers, Merlin

 

[Cegidfa]

Hi Kirk,

I’ve been called a lot of things, but professional commentator hasn’t been one of them

I think that I will leave solving Espania’s debt crisis to Mark Zuckerberg.
My spending power is pretty ‘mocus’ in comparison, as a Mexican would say. :shock: :wink:

Actually, Diane is taking me. She decided that we needed a break from the long haul of the build and just booked it. And she is not wrong. =D>

We have wanted to see the Alhambra for a long time. We love Islamic architecture: and next on the list is Barcelona - to see the Gaudi architecture, which is quite mad but we love it. But we do wonder if the Sagrada Familia will ever be finished?

So it’s buenas noches from me.

Hello Merlin,

I’ve just noticed your update. Lets hope that they hold up, if not, you will be well versed in changing the old contactors by now.
If nothing else, you have learned a bit of useful info which may stand you in good stead in the future, and you won’t be afraid to try things.
And I have thoroughly enjoyed helping; I always enjoyed the challenge of a truculent machine :wink:
In the meantime, I will leave you in the ‘tender’ care of Kirk,(who knows what he is doing), but watch out, he enjoys a good leg pull - I love it, great fun.

Ciao...DIck.

Gosh, three languages in one posting. Now if I could only master English......

 

[Stormer1940]

I know you are trying to do this yourself to learn but with all this effort, money and time consuming uncertainty would it not be best to get a electrician in that has done stuff like this before. I found a local guy to me that was a great help when putting my Wadkin Table Saw in and I think it cost be all of 30-40 pounds...

Sounds like you got it sorted so congratulations just thought I'd chuck my opinion out there...

 

[merlin]

Hello Stormer,

I am always up for an opinion.

You are proberly right as it was (is if it still plays up) a fair bit of hastle but I do like to give things a go and if it wasn't for Dick and Bob I would not have gone as far as I did, I know a few sparkies at work but it seems that the whole 3 phase thing is like practising the dark arts so they were not much help.

However if it is not going to play this time I will get somebody to have a look.

Cheers, Merlin

 

[Stormer1940]

The guy that did my electric did have experience with machine shops so suppose I landed on my feet when a friend recommended him.

 

[merlin]

Well that makes a nice change -

I had the Multico going on and off for about an hour today with no problems, I kept checking the coils to see if they were getting hot but they stayed quite cool.

I can only put the coils burning out down to the contacts being dirty, heres hopeing.

Cheers, Merlin

 

[kirkpoore1]

Merlin:

I'm glad it was something fairly easy. I would, however, keep an eye on it. Dirty and burned contacts have a tendency to get dirty & burned again. One of the starters on my mortiser has a contact that is, shall we say, tempermental--sometimes it won't turn off. When I first got the machine I had to tear the starter down to find the issue. The contact is way, way inside, and it took me quite a while to find it. After I put it back together, it worked for 3-4 years, but now it's acting up again. I don't really want to tear it down again, so I'm working around it for the moment.

Kirk

 

[Cegidfa]

Morning Merlin,

We are just back from Antiquera - the hottest May on record :wink:

I’m glad that the machine is now behaving its self. As the new connection/contact is err..new it should have a decent lifespan. But don’t forget that the power contacts will have done more duty. However, when the time comes to replace it, you will have the skill and confidence to carry out the (now) familiar procedure =D>

Hello Kirk,

Stop being so mean :shock: Give that poor mortiser a birthday treat and invest in a new contactor.
It was already a pensioner when you acquired it. :lol: :lol:

Regards to each...Dick.