MiniMax S500P v Centauro CO500 v Felder FB510 Bandsaws

[orchard]

Sorry to start another bandsaw thread, but i'd really appreciate some experienced help please. I find myself unable to decide between the single phase Centauro and Felder models, pictured below, and I hope a discussion may help others out too, because there's not a lot of information out there:

Data that i've managed to gather so far (please add if you can):

Model S500P CO 500HD FB510
Cut Depth 50cm 50cm 41cm
Throat 48cm 48cm 48cm
Table 50x70cm 62x45cm 50x64cm
Extraction 1x10cm 1x10cm 2x12cm
Blade Width 1-3cm ?-3cm 1-3cm
Cutting speed ? ? 25m/s
Flywheel speed ? 920rpm 850 U/min
Mitre Slot Yes No Yes
Upper Guide 'Precision' Carter 'High Precision' Ceramic
Lower Guide Wooden? Carter 'High Precision' Ceramic
Motor Protect Yes Yes ?
Power 2.5hp 2.5hp 4hp
Height 201cm ? 199.5cm
Weight 260kg 290kg 250kg
Aprx.Cost+Del £3,250 £4,200 £2,300

My initial thoughts are to go with the Felder, it has plenty of power (in theory), and is considerably less expensive, with the only compromises, that I can tell anyway, being a cutting depth of 41cm (which I can live with), a weaker fence imo, and build quality-which i'm less sure about, as from what I can gather, the Centauro's have universal parts that I think will aid its longevity -- I want this to be the last and only bandsaw I buy. Just how does the Felder quality and replacability of parts stack up to the Centauro's ?

Against the Centauro's imo are:
Are the Minimax guides bearings or solid like the CO500 ?
What's the deal with wooden lower guides in the UK with MiniMax ?
How can one use an accurate re-saw sled on the CO when there's no mitre slot ?
The big one, POWER, on paper, the claimed HP's have far weaker motors than the Felder, and even MiniMax in the USA have twice the power. Are they indeed weaker, or is it a marketing thing that disregards torque, or speed, wheel momentum or something i'm not getting ?

Thanks in advance

Nick

 

[Hickorystick]

I will state the obvious - get a Hammer N4400 ! :lol:
And - its got a 3.5hp motor !

Havent got it powered up yet so reserve the right to change this opinion !
Having looked at those pics they are both serious bits of kit...
That wasn't helpful to you at all really but I thought I would say my piece anyway ! :ho2

 

[orchard]

I will state the obvious - get a Hammer N4400 ! :lol:
And - its got a 3.5hp motor !

Havent got it powered up yet so reserve the right to change this opinion !
Having looked at those pics they are both serious bits of kit...
That wasn't helpful to you at all really but I thought I would say my piece anyway ! :ho2

It was helpful in the sense that it bumped something I need help with, lol.

I thought your Hammer was 4hp ??? Have a look at your manual mate :wink:

It's one of the things i'm trying to get my head around-- glossy HP statements, efficiency of the motor, speed the motor's wound for, tension capability...and i'm getting nowhere fast like, haha

 

[Hickorystick]

Just checked... this is off the specs on the website...
N4400

Electrics
001 3x 400 V S
003 1x 230 V motor voltage W
004 50 Hz motor frequency S
008 Motor 3.5 HP (2.5 kW) S6/40% S

Is it worth fishing around on some of the American Wood sites for some opinions - especially the MiniMax ?
I must admit - whenever I research something on the internet - whether it be a TV, a fridge, or a big wood machine, the initial views are useful, then dig a bit deeper and things get more confusing, and then you end up with so many opinions !!!
Do these machines have distributors over here you can ring and ask ?
Phil

 

[orchard]

Just checked... this is off the specs on the website...
N4400

Electrics
001 3x 400 V S
003 1x 230 V motor voltage W
004 50 Hz motor frequency S
008 Motor 3.5 HP (2.5 kW) S6/40% S

Oh yea, so it is mate, sorry, I was under the impression all Felder/Hammer's had the same motor

Is it worth fishing around on some of the American Wood sites for some opinions - especially the MiniMax ?
I must admit - whenever I research something on the internet - whether it be a TV, a fridge, or a big wood machine, the initial views are useful, then dig a bit deeper and things get more confusing, and then you end up with so many opinions !!!
Do these machines have distributors over here you can ring and ask ?
Phil

I have mate thanks. There's not a lot out there for the Centauro CO, and although MiniMax gets a lot of coverage in the US, the critical aspect I need clarifying (power) pertains to Europe, as the US versions have high HP Baldor motors fitted as standard whereas we don't, and I think they have upper and lower roller guides (I believe), whereas ours have Carter CP20's up top and wooden blocks below (which can be upgraded...) -whatever that means...
Most questions that i've posed to the respective distributors have been ignored if they go beyond what's on their website/literature, hence the thread, hopefully someone with experience of a Centauro CO, or non-S45N European MiniMax will come along shortly

 

[orchard]

Morning!

ScoSarg are wanting around 4.2 K for the CO 500, so that pretty much rules it out on the grounds of value for me, helps simplify matters somewhat

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Hi Nick

Have you considered the BS400 (ducks and runs for cover)?

 

[orchard]

Hi Nick

Have you considered the BS400 (ducks and runs for cover)?

I'm gonna report this one to the mods, it's for the greater good

Seriously though, they look like very good machines for versatility. I'd just know that i'd fret with every capacity resaw job i'd maybe lose some qualitative aspect of the machine and have to repeat this process again, and hunks of steel and iron won't be getting cheeper imo

 

[beech1948]

Interesting that the Minimax and Centauro look to have identical frames, switches,guides and pressed steel bodies.

The lack of a mitre guide slot on the Centauro is no big thing as bandsaws are not known for there accuracy and attempting cutting accurate mitres on a bandsaw should be a no-no.

Wooden lower guides seem to me to be OK. I am not a fan of bearing guides anyway. Wooden guides such as lignum vitae can be as good or better than bearings....I do feel bearing guides are an unnecessary fashion hoisted on us hobbyists by the industry. But then I use a Startrite 352 with metal block guides at top and bottom and have never found bearings to be advantageous despite trying them once. My other band saw is really for ripping larger timbers and is a Stenner which uses blocks in the upper guides and after market bearings in the lower guides put there by a previous owner. This saw is up for sale and should be gone soon but what to replace it with.

 

[orchard]

Interesting that the Minimax and Centauro look to have identical frames, switches,guides and pressed steel bodies.

If the information i've gathered is correct, they are both built by Centauro (FIAT), the MiniMax's to SCM's spec's as an adaptation of the CO line (Centauro also do an SP series that sits between the two in their range). The only anomaly is the light-weight MiniMax S45N that I believe is built for SCM by ACM.

The lack of a mitre guide slot on the Centauro is no big thing as bandsaws are not known for there accuracy and attempting cutting accurate mitres on a bandsaw should be a no-no.

I think i'll need one for helping to guide a re-saw sled, and other jigs perhaps mate.

Wooden lower guides seem to me to be OK. I am not a fan of bearing guides anyway. Wooden guides such as lignum vitae can be as good or better than bearings....I do feel bearing guides are an unnecessary fashion hoisted on us hobbyists by the industry. But then I use a Startrite 352 with metal block guides at top and bottom and have never found bearings to be advantageous despite trying them once.

I plan to steer clear of guide bearings too if I can thanks - I think the Centauro CO come with Carter CP20's (thrust guide as the only bearing I think), MiniMax also, and the Felder i'd upgrade to ceramic.

CP20:

Felder's Ceramic:

That's reassuring about the wood thanks, i'm wondering how coarse they are regarding whether or not ANY mounting system is supplied with the wood at all !

My other band saw is really for ripping larger timbers and is a Stenner which uses blocks in the upper guides and after market bearings in the lower guides put there by a previous owner. This saw is up for sale and should be gone soon but what to replace it with.

Bearings only for the lower guide system seems a strange choice to me as they'll get the most chod, no ?

Good luck mate, don't let that Bob bully you into buying a Record Power if you don't want to
Seriously though keep us posted, and if there's anything that a novice like myself can help you with, please ask

 

[orchard]

Crikey, just got another quote for an S500P:

"Price for Minimax S500p Bandsaw 1 PHASE Including delivery & VAT £3,995.00"

I get the distinct impression distributors don't want to sell these....

To contextualise, in the US, the list price is $4,599, or £2,929 with a more powerful motor and lower guides as standard...

 

[RobinBHM]

I came across some useful info here http://www.solowoodworker.com/mm/bandsaw.html on minimax / centauro. I was curious as your images show they are likely to come from the same stable.

My understanding of bandsaws is that it is the rigidity of the frame which is the real limiting factor on the maximum blade width and therefore cutting depth. A strong frame is required to fully tension a wide blade. I suppose this is where the older cast body machines have an advantage.

The machines you are looking at seem to be about the maximum size possible in single phase. Motor size isn't that important on a bandsaw, unless you are wanting to do a lot of deep cutting. A sharp blade is probably more important.

I always think that the upper blade guide mounting is important, on some of the cheaper machines there is too much flex making perfect setting up of the blade guides difficult as the positioning may vary when the hight is altered.

 

[orchard]

Thanks Robin!

came across some useful info here http://www.solowoodworker.com/mm/bandsaw.html on minimax / centauro. I was curious as your images show they are likely to come from the same stable.

It's a useful site isn't it, different motors/power to those in Europe, so beware

My understanding of bandsaws is that it is the rigidity of the frame which is the real limiting factor on the maximum blade width and therefore cutting depth. A strong frame is required to fully tension a wide blade. I suppose this is where the older cast body machines have an advantage.
The machines you are looking at seem to be about the maximum size possible in single phase. Motor size isn't that important on a bandsaw, unless you are wanting to do a lot of deep cutting. A sharp blade is probably more important.

That's one of my big questions really, if Felder use 4hp for 40cm, why do MM Europe only have 2.5hp for 50cm ? Are the quality of motors substantially different, is it the hp under load, is efficiency similar, is it more of a sales gimmick ? I hope someone with a Euro single phase MM can provide some input eventually

I always think that the upper blade guide mounting is important, on some of the cheaper machines there is too much flex making perfect setting up of the blade guides difficult as the positioning may vary when the hight is altered.

Good point, MM-USA make a point of mentioning that they use the thickest steel rod here, and that the whole guide post assembly is independent (see 2m50s below), something i'd like to know about the Felder !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFHQB-ZLS84

 

[woodpig]

For the type of money you're talking about I think you'd be better off with a nice used Startrite.

 

[orchard]

For the type of money you're talking about I think you'd be better off with a nice used Startrite.

A reconditioned Wadkin maybe, it's just too big and heavy for my space mate thanks

 

[orchard]

Just had a good long chat with a chap from SCM regarding the MiniMax. He was extremely helpful in providing further information on the bandsaw, although i'm rather discouraged to realise that the 2.5HP motor has the same rating as the 4HP Felder.

Is 2.5HP enough for fairly deep resaw, all other things being equal ?

 

[cerdeira]

That's one of my big questions really, if Felder use 4hp for 40cm, why do MM Europe only have 2.5hp for 50cm ? Are the quality of motors substantially different, is it the hp under load, is efficiency similar, is it more of a sales gimmick ? I hope someone with a Euro single phase MM can provide some input eventually

I believe Felder quotes motor power with a duty cycle S6 (intermittent usage) whereas most other manufacturers quote power at S1 duty cycle (continuous operation). I'm not an expert but being power defined as energy per time unit, the value will somewhat increase if the motor only operates at full load for a fraction of the time.

Having said that, my bandsaw is only 1.1 kW and I can resaw hardwood 230mm deep (the max depth available) without any problem

 

[orchard]

That's one of my big questions really, if Felder use 4hp for 40cm, why do MM Europe only have 2.5hp for 50cm ? Are the quality of motors substantially different, is it the hp under load, is efficiency similar, is it more of a sales gimmick ? I hope someone with a Euro single phase MM can provide some input eventually

I believe Felder quotes motor power with a duty cycle S6 (intermittent usage) whereas most other manufacturers quote power at S1 duty cycle (continuous operation). I'm not an expert but being power defined as energy per time unit, the value will somewhat increase if the motor only operates at full load for a fraction of the time.

Having said that, my bandsaw is only 1.1 kW and I can resaw hardwood 230mm deep (the max depth available) without any problem

Ahh, that first paragraph's very useful thanks! Both use S6, both 40pc, MM2.5hp Felder 4hp. Is yours 1.1kw S6?

 

[cerdeira]

Is yours 1.1kw S6?

It says S1 on the motor plate. It's a Jet 16". The only occasion I had the motor stalling was when trying to rip some 70mm thick timber
that bent dramatically and pinched the blade. Placing a wedge on the saw kerf solved that.

 

[orchard]

Is yours 1.1kw S6?

It says S1 on the motor plate. It's a Jet 16". The only occasion I had the motor stalling was when trying to rip some 70mm thick timber
that bent dramatically and pinched the blade. Placing a wedge on the saw kerf solved that.

Thanks, just dug this out which may be helpful:


S1 Continuous duty The motor works at a constant load for enough time to reach temperature equilibrium.
S2 Short-time duty The motor works at a constant load, but not long enough to reach temperature equilibrium. The rest periods are long enough for the motor to reach ambient temperature.
S3 Intermittent periodic duty Sequential, identical run and rest cycles with constant load. Temperature equilibrium is never reached. Starting current has little effect on temperature rise.
S4 Intermittent periodic duty with starting Sequential, identical start, run and rest cycles with constant load. Temperature equilibrium is not reached, but starting current affects temperature rise.
S5 Intermittent periodic duty with electric braking Sequential, identical cycles of starting, running at constant load and running with no load. No rest periods.
S6 Continuous operation with intermittent load Sequential, identical cycles of running with constant load and running with no load. No rest periods.
S7 Continuous operation with electric braking Sequential identical cycles of starting, running at constant load and electric braking. No rest periods.
S8 Continuous operation with periodic changes in load and speed Sequential, identical duty cycles run at constant load and given speed, then run at other constant loads and speeds. No rest periods.

Edit:

No idea of the implications of the above like