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MikeG.

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Talk to the folks at the Centre for Alternative Technology, Macchynleth. They used to do an information sheet on small turbines.........I don't know
 

RogerS

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MikeG.":y18ddz5z said:
Talk to the folks at the Centre for Alternative Technology, Macchynleth. They used to do an information sheet on small turbines.........I don't know
I looked at them but their website seemed a bit thin on the ground TBH.
 

MikeG.

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RogerS":3umd6olq said:
MikeG.":3umd6olq said:
Talk to the folks at the Centre for Alternative Technology, Macchynleth. They used to do an information sheet on small turbines.........I don't know
I looked at them but their website seemed a bit thin on the ground TBH.
Ring them up and talk to them, or go and visit. It's a fascinating place. They also have an extensive bookshop, and will stock publications covering this topic.
 

RichardG

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I can remember Dick Strawbridge making one on his TV prog It’s not easy being green, can’t remember all the details though but may give some pointers.
 

Chris152

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MikeG.":63j8q3i2 said:
RogerS":63j8q3i2 said:
MikeG.":63j8q3i2 said:
Talk to the folks at the Centre for Alternative Technology, Macchynleth. They used to do an information sheet on small turbines.........I don't know
I looked at them but their website seemed a bit thin on the ground TBH.
Ring them up and talk to them, or go and visit. It's a fascinating place. They also have an extensive bookshop, and will stock publications covering this topic.
Definitely worth the trip if you can make it there, Roger. I took the kids a few years back, we loved it - learned lots, good fun and a lovely location.
 

RogerS

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CAT is about 4.5 hours drive away and so initially thought that I'd give it a miss. But then :shock: But then I saw where it was located...right on the edge of the Mach Loop which is somewhere that I've wanted to go to for a very long time. So maybe just might make the trip.
 

Sheffield Tony

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I seem to remember there was talk about needing a water abstraction license, even though the water ends up back in the same place. Made no sense to me.
 

Droogs

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look up Kris Harbour on youtube he has just built a hydro system to power his workshop and house from a much smaller are lower flow river.
 

RogerS

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Sheffield Tony":39hyss5i said:
I seem to remember there was talk about needing a water abstraction license, even though the water ends up back in the same place. Made no sense to me.
You're right and it makes no sense to me either other than being an example of Rip-Off Britain. Prices look high as well ...c £1700 but that might have included the cost of using an 'agent'. Apparently you also need planning permission ?
 

Trainee neophyte

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RogerS":2yb54nbf said:
Sheffield Tony":2yb54nbf said:
I seem to remember there was talk about needing a water abstraction license, even though the water ends up back in the same place. Made no sense to me.
You're right and it makes no sense to me either other than being an example of Rip-Off Britain. Prices look high as well ...c £1700 but that might have included the cost of using an 'agent'. Apparently you also need planning permission ?
Being the reprobate I am, I would probably not mention anything to anyone, so no permission needed. Do you have the Environment Agency tramping through your land on a regular basis? I think a pelton wheel fed by a 4" pipe would probably be good enough, assuming you have a reasonable head (height) to give you pressure. Something like this:
[youtube]rj6BQj4An70[/youtube]

The higher the pressure, the smaller the pipe needed, and vice versa. Apparently the average house needs 11kWh per day, which is 0.5kW running 24 hours, and a battery and inverter. 4KW would run every device in your house individually, but you would need to be careful about not running the planer/thicknesser at the same time as the washing machine. Your electricity bill will tell you a lot about what you need.

Or you could go belt-driven, like the chap in the video:


You may want a longer push stick (or two?)

Finally, the best option would be to sell all the produced power to the grid, and then buy back power from the grid for your house, so you don't need to worry about supply and demand issues. I have no idea if this is possible any more. There used to be rules about the grid having to take any supply, provided it met particular standards (i.e. didn't fluctuate too much), but I don't know if these still apply. You could also find a customer elsewhere, and use the national grid to transport the electricity, at a small cost. Lots of exciting possibilities. You may need planning permission and extraction permission and all the other government taxes in order to be official.
 

D_W

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You need more head (like 100 ft vertical or so of pressure) to get good yield out of a turbine. I don't know how how much for sure, if it's 50 or 150, but whatever the case, you need more head than that.

But, you can do a lower speed lower tech design and get good yield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnyo95hon-U

(Not sure if this guy says anything in this video, but I recall him saying perhaps elsewhere that this system is making about 350 watts all the time and he mentioned the last one he had went for 13 years - grease once a year and not much else).
 

sunnybob

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I am very sceptical of this home generation.
300 watts wont cover your workshop lighting, let alone ANY mains powered machine.
Averaging output over 24 hours is not relevant. Try boiling a kettle with 300 watts, while watching the TV.
Then take into consideration how much you have spent on parts, even if you dont count a single hour of your time in making the damn thing.
THEN, calculate how much it costs to buy that much power from the grid.

Roof mounted solar systems on the other hand, do generate enough to be useful. Even if it is very expensive to install at least you can get some return on your outlay with the possibility of actually getting your money back, where this is all dead money.
 

Jonathan S

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For what is worth....I live off grid in Andalucia ....we have a PV photovoltaic system with a 3kw inventor.....for regularly used big loads eg oven, kettle we are on bottled gas. Deep well for water and washings machine we are programmed to do whilst the sun is high.
We do have to programme ourselves to think differently as to when we use power....

At the moment I'm building myself a new off grid profesional workshop beside my home and will be running big ish machines eg spindle moulder, planer thicknesser, slider etc each machine pulling approximately 4kw.....this is going to be interesting and will mean a new PV system.

.....for me being independent of the system is a luxury I've aways dreamed of.....and no power cuts!



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sunnybob":3qxhfwt8 said:
I am very sceptical of this home generation.
300 watts wont cover your workshop lighting, let alone ANY mains powered machine.
Averaging output over 24 hours is not relevant. Try boiling a kettle with 300 watts, while watching the TV.
Then take into consideration how much you have spent on parts, even if you dont count a single hour of your time in making the damn thing.
THEN, calculate how much it costs to buy that much power from the grid.

Roof mounted solar systems on the other hand, do generate enough to be useful. Even if it is very expensive to install at least you can get some return on your outlay with the possibility of actually getting your money back, where this is all dead money.
If the supply is small, you could just connect it to your house supply and make the meter run backwards (queue howls of protest from the electrician contingent, and rightly so).

The thing with electricity is that we are extremely profligate with it. Anyone who has ever lived off-grid will understand just how much energy we throw around without thought.

300W is still significant, if you are getting it 24/7. You could probably light your house with it, using LED lighting, but the important point is that it is continuous, and mounts up. 7kWh a day is about half of your electricity needs, if there was only a way to use more than 300W at a time. Cue batteries!

The amount of water in Roger's video suggests plenty of flow, and then it's just a case of how far up the stream you can run a pipe to give you a good enough head. Even if you have to sneak into your neighbour's land, if you ask nicely it may not be a problem, especially if you can give / sell them some electricity, too.

Power = Head x Flow x Gravity
where power is measured in Watts, head in metres, flow in litres per second, and acceleration due to gravity in metres per second per second.
The acceleration due to gravity is approximately 9.81 metres per second per second – i.e. each second an object is falling, its speed increases by 9.81 metres per second (until it hits its terminal velocity).
You could use all of the water, with a low head (i.e. a water wheel or similar), or a small amount of the water with a high head - turbine time. Then you need to work out the power available and see if the numbers make sense. Even with small amounts you could heat water or run a storage heater, for example. Just because we use 4kW elements to heat water normally, doesn't mean you have to - https://bloglocation.com/art/water-heat ... ergy-power 300W could heat 100 litres of water from 10°C to 50°C in 15 hours. How much hot water does a house need? You could even link it in to your underfloor heating - it may not do all the work, but it is going to help.

Who doesn't want free energy?

Given that this is a woodworking forum, shouldn't we be advocating a nice waterwheel design?
 

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Jonathan S":1dbejqh4 said:
For what is worth....I live off grid in Andalucia ....we have a PV photovoltaic system with a 3kw inventor.....for regularly used big loads eg oven, kettle we are on bottled gas. Deep well for water and washings machine we are programmed to do whilst the sun is high.
We do have to programme ourselves to think differently as to when we use power....

At the moment I'm building myself a new off grid profesional workshop beside my home and will be running big ish machines eg spindle moulder, planer thicknesser, slider etc each machine pulling approximately 4kw.....this is going to be interesting and will mean a new PV system.

.....for me being independent of the system is a luxury I've aways dreamed of.....and no power cuts!



Sent from my SM-J530F using Tapatalk
I'm jealous! I have a 10kW solar array, but I sell all the power to the grid, and then buy back what I need at a cheaper rate - it's the easy option, but given half my bill is various taxes, going properly off-grid would be better. At some point as taxes rise, there will come the point when it is better to be independent.

Water pumps are the bane of my existence - having solar powered pumps would probably save me half my electricity bill, but it comes with its own issues. I really ought to get the municipal supply, but as we are higher than the supply reservoir, it would still need a pump, at my expense.
 

Jonathan S

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Trainee neophyte":7pvm793a said:
Jonathan S":7pvm793a said:
For what is worth....I live off grid in Andalucia ....we have a PV photovoltaic system with a 3kw inventor.....for regularly used big loads eg oven, kettle we are on bottled gas. Deep well for water and washings machine we are programmed to do whilst the sun is high.
We do have to programme ourselves to think differently as to when we use power....

At the moment I'm building myself a new off grid profesional workshop beside my home and will be running big ish machines eg spindle moulder, planer thicknesser, slider etc each machine pulling approximately 4kw.....this is going to be interesting and will mean a new PV system.

.....for me being independent of the system is a luxury I've aways dreamed of.....and no power cuts!



Sent from my SM-J530F using Tapatalk

Water pumps are the bane of my existence - having solar powered pumps would probably save me half my electricity bill, but it comes with its own issues. I really ought to get the municipal supply, but as we are higher than the supply reservoir, it would still need a pump, at my expense.
My present pump is a regular 220v run off the inventor.
I opted for the smallest I could get 0.75kw, set to pump for 15mins a day.....its more than enough for a family of 4.
Having lived without water you soon learn to appreciate it!
Next time I will most probably go for a 48v pump run direct from PV.




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sunnybob

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the small stream powered pump is just not economically viable.
A full scale effort of off the grid works, but at significant start up costs.

If you are truly in the middle of nowhere, then there isnt a plan B, but if you ARE connected to a grid, then the sheer cost of parts and hours and maintenance adds up to more than just paying the electric bill would.

Just across the road from me was a restaurant called the shack. It was literally that. He had a truck engine strapped to a generator for when he was open at night, and it also fed a HUGE pallet full of batteries that took up a cubic metre of space, and three inverters, just to run the fridges and freezers for when he wasnt open.
The cost to him was enormous. 30 feet away was a full electric power pole, but the landlord of this shack would not connect to it, so the tenant had to go through all this rigmarole.
And if you think that a few green houses will make the slightest dent in a nations electricity demands, then you really havent understood just how much big business wastes every minute of every day.
 

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