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MFT - wossit all about?

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MikeK

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I have some issues with my PT107 that needs to be addressed, something must move or change once the tables have been lifted for thicknesser mode so be interesting to see how you solve your problems. You have heavy pivots on one side and then the tables sit on 6mm bolts the other, just seems to small and the locking levers exert a reasonable force to hold them down, do you notice much of a change between unlocked and locked.
Yes, there is a lot of change when the pedestal is locked. It is a horrible design, and I'll start another thread later tonight that documents my descent into the Tenth Circle of Hell created specifically for the designers of this family of P/T.
 

Spectric

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That will be interesting, looks like the holzmann is a cost reduced version based on the Axi / Record brands, the sellers say this

Holzmann is a leading manufacturer of high-quality machinery. Though they have been around for centuries, they remain global players in the field of machinery and workshop equipment today.

whilst the owners say
 

MikeK

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That will be interesting, looks like the holzmann is a cost reduced version based on the Axi / Record brands, the sellers say this

Holzmann is a leading manufacturer of high-quality machinery. Though they have been around for centuries, they remain global players in the field of machinery and workshop equipment today.

whilst the owners say
Holzmann might have been a manufacturer of high quality machinery at one time, but I don't think this is true now. I saw Andrea'a video last year, and his P/T has some of the same faults mine has. I think the only thing on these machines that came from Austria might be the label.

Two years ago I contacted Holzmann to ask about changing the motor from single-phase to three-phase. The technician's recommendation was to sell my machine and buy a new machine that has the three-phase motor because they did not stock any parts and had to order everything from the factory in China. Even something as simple as replacement knives had to be ordered from China. However, he was helpful and the next day sent me an interior photo of a three-phase model so I could see the difference between the two models. He also found a spare three-phase motor that would fit. He initially told me it would cost €90 plus shipping, but the sales team wanted €450 for it and I would still have to buy a contactor and start/stop switch. I thanked him, but passed on the offer since I paid €900 for the machine and didn't want to toss that much money down that pit.
 

Spectric

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I think Scheppach have also gone down the same plug hole, and looks like Holzmann are now nothing more than a reseller of asian produce but as the customer they should be maintaining at least a spares stock unless they consider their products as disposable.
 

paulrbarnard

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For many people, it's easier to see the immediate saving (of buying cheap)... than the long-term saving of buying 'wise'.
(That said, if one hasn't got sufficient cash/credit to buy a decent machine... that can be an insurmountable issue).

Our Miele washing machine is nearly 23 years old - and it's had a hard working life.
In all those years, I've replaced one drive belt and two shock absorbers... total cost of parts: £50.
Wow you bought a lemon! Ours is about the same age and has never missed a beat.
 

Hornbeam

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A MFT is not a replacement for a work bench, but rather a versatile assembly table
There are better ways to support work for hand sawing and planing. MFTs work better with power tools
This is what I am trying to get my head round. I have used a traditional bench for 30+ years and am now looking at what will work best as an assembly table, with other functions. There are some quite clever ideas out there to maximise functionality within limited space,
 

PerryGunn

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This is what I am trying to get my head round. I have used a traditional bench for 30+ years and am now looking at what will work best as an assembly table, with other functions. There are some quite clever ideas out there to maximise functionality within limited space,
I had a similar dilemma when I wanted an MFT so I built a really solid one that folded up against the wall when I didn't need it
 

Jacob

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This is what I am trying to get my head round. I have used a traditional bench for 30+ years and am now looking at what will work best as an assembly table, with other functions. There are some quite clever ideas out there to maximise functionality within limited space,
Best assembly table I saw was basically a low table with the top made of 2x2" hardwood with 2" gaps. It was framed up stiff enough to stay dead flat, the slats were varnished and wax polished to easily clean glue off even after it had set, the gaps meant you could pop in g clamps or sash clamps anywhere you wanted, either to hold down the workpiece or to hold laths etc for alignment. It was only for assembly - not an actual woodworking bench.
 

MikeK

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This is what I am trying to get my head round. I have used a traditional bench for 30+ years and am now looking at what will work best as an assembly table, with other functions. There are some quite clever ideas out there to maximise functionality within limited space,
The initial goal with my project was to build an assembly and work table that I can move around as required, is large enough for the upcoming projects I know about, is sturdy enough to hold my projects during fabrication and glue up, and had storage for what I thought would be commonly used tools. Adding the MFT-style feature with the 20mm holes came later while I was still in the concept phase. Up until then, I was content with using my table saw for all lumber and sheet good cuts, with full sheet ripping in the garage using the track saw. I can maneuver a full sheet (2500 x 1250mm) of 19mm plywood or MDF into the basement, but could not rip a full sheet on my table saw. I can easily crosscut full sheets, but the five meter wall to wall distance along the blade's path will not allow a full sheet to start before the blade or end after the blade. Until I can buy a sliding saw that uses a LASER instead of a circular blade, the longest rip cut I can make on the table saw is 2350mm without the scoring blade or 2240mm with the scoring blade.

I'm using the table saw less and using the new table for almost all cutting. I use the table saw when cutting lumber, but use the new table and track saw for nearly everything else. I can also rip full sheets on the new table with my track saw and produce splinter-free cuts on both sides of the blade. In my experience, the guide rail splinter guard eliminates splinters and tear out on the piece under the rail, and the TS55 and TS75 have splinter guards that slide down on the outer side of the blade to keep the other edge splinter free.

The inspiration for my work table came from a member on the Festool Owners Group who built a MFT-style work table using a full 8x4 foot sheet of 18mm MDF as the work surface and extruded aluminum for the frame. This was too big for my basement, but the 2000mm x 1000mm size proved to be perfect for me. The hole pattern in the top allows me to place dogs anywhere, and the accuracy of the hole placement ensures square cuts. I didn't realize this until later, but the two coats of hard wax oil on the work surface allows glue spills to pop off when they are dry without leaving any marks on the surface.

The horizontal and vertical channels in the extrusion accommodate the Festool clamps, T-track nuts, and M8 carriage bolts. The heads of the bolts fit nicely in the slot and the square shank on the bolt fits in the 8mm channel. My table has over 25 meters of available T-track on its four sides.
 

Hornbeam

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Best assembly table I saw was basically a low table with the top made of 2x2" hardwood with 2" gaps. It was framed up stiff enough to stay dead flat, the slats were varnished and wax polished to easily clean glue off even after it had set, the gaps meant you could pop in g clamps or sash clamps anywhere you wanted, either to hold down the workpiece or to hold laths etc for alignment. It was only for assembly - not an actual woodworking bench.
Thankyou Jacob. I think I have very clearly got your views. What I am trying to get is some wider views so that I can make the best of both worlds
 

TomGW

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There have been various references to the sacrificial nature of the MFT top with suggestions of routing out a strip along the cut line etc. My solution was to cover the entire top with a piece of 6mm MDF with a grid of holes sufficiently large to not foul the dogs. This way the MFT top remains intact. Easy to drill the holes as they are large enough to avoid the need for precision. A hand full of screws hold it in place.
 

Chip shop

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I have an MFT and wouldn't be without it. For building cabs in a small workshop or on site they're brill.
 

MikeK

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Yes, there is a lot of change when the pedestal is locked. It is a horrible design, and I'll start another thread later tonight that documents my descent into the Tenth Circle of Hell created specifically for the designers of this family of P/T.
I started a new thread about my P/T:

 

ian33a

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I'd just buy the Parf Guide System from Axminster Tools £200 for it and you can build as many tops as you like and put Dog holes in legs etc with it, although I have found his pricing system questionable, comes out with a Parf reamer and says he doesn't want it to cost the earth, he wanted it to be under £10, I think it was £7 something on release, and he did a video on YT for it 3 or so weeks later he'd pulled the video, completely and it was then about £14.
I lost all respect for the man with that trick tbh and I brought the ruddy System last year but still haven't used it yet, but the results are undeniable, just won't buy anything else of his now, having done a video on his site waxing lyrical about pricing it for the ordinary Woodworker, then doubling the price, just speaks volumes to me to be honest, 💡😉
Having spent time with Peter and him explaining the system I'd like to offer my input:

Peter is the inventor of the system and the associated guides but he isn't the manufacturer. For that he works with Axminster Tools and they handle all of that as well as the pricing. Peter takes a royalty for units sold.

In my humble opinion Peter is a confident inventor who is happy to promote as well as defend the product. He is also a very genuine person and is just as nice in real life as he is in the videos that he produces.

As a user of the Parf II guide system I can honestly say that the system is very good. None of the messing around with aluminium foil and other such nonsense and very decent MFT inserts can be built very quickly provided the instructions are properly followed.

These two inserts were drilled in a couple of hours and the accuracy across the whole table with a five point cut was far better than I ever expected it to be.

20210522_173330.jpg


I haven't owned the Festool MFT and decided against buying one as all of my work is done at home and the Festool unit wasn't sturdy enough for what I wanted. I think I paid about £100 for the black Valchromat and have enough capacity to make three inserts from it.

While the Parf II is expensive it just works so well and, having invested in it, you can build whatever sized and shaped inserts you wish as often as you wish and any decent quality MDF can be used. With a suitable clamp system you can even make something and clamp it to a woodworking vice and have it on top of an existing bench.

As for the dogs - you don't have to spend hundreds at Benchdogs or Axminster, you can buy cheap plastic dogs for little more than the cost of a beer and then adapt them as you wish, should you prefer.

Perhaps a purist and very capable woodworker may see the system as inferior. For hobbyist users or those who value an easy clamp accurate cutting system I think it offers great benefits.
 

ian33a

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There have been various references to the sacrificial nature of the MFT top with suggestions of routing out a strip along the cut line etc. My solution was to cover the entire top with a piece of 6mm MDF with a grid of holes sufficiently large to not foul the dogs. This way the MFT top remains intact. Easy to drill the holes as they are large enough to avoid the need for precision. A hand full of screws hold it in place.
Totally agree Tom - that's how I use mine too.
 

martin.pearson

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This is what I am trying to get my head round. I have used a traditional bench for 30+ years and am now looking at what will work best as an assembly table, with other functions. There are some quite clever ideas out there to maximise functionality within limited space,
What would you require from an assembly table? Sorry but being fairly new to this I am not really sure. I don't have a traditional bench but then I don't do a lot with hand tools & was very limited on space so the MFT style top that I could put away after use seemed like the best way for me, obviously doesn't suit everyone lol. I built it when I purchased a track saw but it gets used whenever I need a flat surface to work on. I probably use it for some of the things that you would do on your traditional bench. It doesn't have a vice but I don't use one on a regular basis & if I do need one then I have one on another small makeshift bench.


Just to add that I agree with what ian33a has said, I haven't used the parf guide system myself but know a couple of people who have one & they think it was a great investment. Having a CNC there was no need for me to invest in it. I've only met Peter once but he seemed to be a genuine guy, I was under the impression that he came up with the ideas but the manufacture, pricing & selling was done by Axminster
 
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Adam W.

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Having spent time with Peter and him explaining the system I'd like to offer my input:

Peter is the inventor of the system and the associated guides but he isn't the manufacturer. For that he works with Axminster Tools and they handle all of that as well as the pricing. Peter takes a royalty for units sold.

In my humble opinion Peter is a confident inventor who is happy to promote as well as defend the product. He is also a very genuine person and is just as nice in real life as he is in the videos that he produces.

As a user of the Parf II guide system I can honestly say that the system is very good. None of the messing around with aluminium foil and other such nonsense and very decent MFT inserts can be built very quickly provided the instructions are properly followed.

These two inserts were drilled in a couple of hours and the accuracy across the whole table with a five point cut was far better than I ever expected it to be.

View attachment 123212

I haven't owned the Festool MFT and decided against buying one as all of my work is done at home and the Festool unit wasn't sturdy enough for what I wanted. I think I paid about £100 for the black Valchromat and have enough capacity to make three inserts from it.

While the Parf II is expensive it just works so well and, having invested in it, you can build whatever sized and shaped inserts you wish as often as you wish and any decent quality MDF can be used. With a suitable clamp system you can even make something and clamp it to a woodworking vice and have it on top of an existing bench.

As for the dogs - you don't have to spend hundreds at Benchdogs or Axminster, you can buy cheap plastic dogs for little more than the cost of a beer and then adapt them as you wish, should you prefer.

Perhaps a purist and very capable woodworker may see the system as inferior. For hobbyist users or those who value an easy clamp accurate cutting system I think it offers great benefits.
That looks nicely built.
 

pgrbff

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A table saw blade cuts down into the material and tends to chip out the underside. If the saw has a scribing blade, it pre cuts into the underside by a couple of mm preventing the chip out before the material passes through the main blade.

A tracksaw cuts up from the underside and the track has a sacrificial strip on it that prevents chip out on the upper surface.
Used in conjunction with a sacrificial sheet below, such as an MFT top, it acts as a zero clearance insert and you get a clean cut on both faces of the board.
But the table below needs to be in good condition for that to work. For a moment there I thought the TS 55 had a scribing blade.
 

Doug71

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But the table below needs to be in good condition for that to work. For a moment there I thought the TS 55 had a scribing blade.
You still get a chip free cut on the underside without a sacrificial sheet below because the teeth are cutting upwards in to the material, it's like a jigsaw, clean cut underneath breakout on the top.

If there was any chipping it would be on the top face where the teeth exit the cut but the plastic zero clearance strip on the track stops this.

People often put a board under because it improves dust extraction.
 
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