Making queen-anne legs?

[Jelly]

My family in Carlisle has been hit hard by flooding, and my grandmother in particular has lost all of her furniture. Against that backdrop I've been approached by members of the family to ask if I could make similar pieces to replace some of the more central pieces.

The major issue I have with that is that most of her furniture stood on queen-anne (cabriole) legs, which I've never made before; I've historically been bad at biting off more than I can chew and this situation is not one where I want to do that with the endless delays and minor mishaps that go with it.

So, how hard is it to make queen-anne legs, beyond initially cutting the shape on a bandsaw I would assume it's all handwork to smooth and shape the legs. How realistic is it for someone who's comfortable making tables with straight legs of simple geometry to just get up and make one with the more complicated leg shape?

I'm assuming that selecting straight grained pieces of timber from a species with good working properties is essential to successful results. The originals were made from beautiful Cuban Mahogany, which I definately won't be able to source or even afford it if I could, I was considering using Red Louro, Red Meranti or possibly African Mahogany, depending on quite how far I can stretch my budget...

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Has anybody considered careful repair of the originals? If they are of cuban mahogany, they presumably had some value, and insurers may see repair as a better financial option for them than paying out full replacement value.

 

[Jelly]

Apparently the originals have been damaged beyond repair, the insurer sent a specialist furniture repairer to take a look who felt it wouldn't be feasible to repair the damage (physical as well as water apparently), which is particularly irritating from a historical point of view as well as a personal tragedy.

The point (I Think) was that the gesture of it being made in the family would mean something more than just buying a replacement, as most of the furniture originally came from my Great-Grandparents, who in turn got it when my Great-Great-Grandparents moved back from Burma to find housing in the UK rather smaller and less salubrious than in the colonies, so a new family connection would go some small way to replacing the one which has been lost... Of course that's quite irrelevant if I'm not up to the task!

 

[dzj]

You might contact people who make ready made legs for tables and chairs and so on.
A fellow on ebay, for example, sells a set of four 15" hardwood legs for £27.00

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Ah - I see. Heartfelt sympathy to your grandmother, and indeed to everybody else affected by the flooding of recent days. Horrible time for many.

Just a suggestion. Don't lose the originals. You'll want them to measure for copies, and it may be that after a bit of time has passed and they've dried out and stabilised a bit, some may not be quite as unrepairable as the expert first thought.

On cabriole legs, I'm afraid I can't speak from experience. However, they are covered briefly in Joyce, and I'm sure there will be others along with other text references. Youtube will be worth a search, too - I'm sure I've seen at least one video tutorial on the subject.

Edit to add - There's also some instruction with excellent drawings including sections at various points up the leg in 'The Construction of Period Country Furniture' by V J Taylor. Long out of print, but there are secondhand copies about at reasonable cost, and there's a great deal else of value and interest in this book, too. Taylor is one of those woodworking authors deserving of mention more often, I think.

 

[AndyT]

I wish I could help from experience, but the best I can offer is that I remember watching this video a while back and thinking that it was so good at showing the full step by step approach and the very gradual emergence of the finished article.

https://youtu.be/zkx742c5ET8

 

[NazNomad]

Aside from a copy-router, I wouldn't have a clue ... but hugs to your Gran. x

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

+1 for buying the legs. A quick look on ebay for new cabriole legs come up with this guy 925gold11 (I have no knowledge of or connection with him), seems pretty cheap I would contact him so you can discuss timber choice so you can match it with the piece, it may cost a little more but you may be able to send him blanks. One thought is would the mortise normally be cut before shaping? Could he do this for you? worth a chat.
Paddy

 

[JimB]

A couple of points. The insurer will look at the most economical way out of their obligations complete restoration in the hands of craftsman may well cost more than the insurance value. In the same way you get a pay-out figure for a damaged car if it would cost more to fix than its insured value. As Cuban Mahogany was a prized ship building timber it shouldn't suffer too much from water in a flood. Unless there is irreparable physical damage it's surely worth having a go yourself.
The second point is that true mahogany is grown in plantations in Fiji these days and is relatively cheap in Australia at least. Probably much dearer in Europe though and of course isn't the quality of the early stuff.

 

[marcros]

this youtube video sprang to mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af5oFasb2pM

 

[custard]

Sorry to hear about your grandmother's troubles.

If you're a reasonably competent furniture maker then cabriole legs really aren't that hard. Indeed if you've been at it for a while then you've probably already made a few without even realising that the modern, sine wave curved leg is pretty much just a contemporary iteration of the cabriole shape. And if you can do that then you certainly do a traditional cabriole.

Couple of points,

-it's all about the laying out. If you ever launch yourself into free form carving then you are 100% guaranteed to royally mess it up. So get your marking out templates sorted, but also lay down interim setting out lines to ensure symmetrical shaping as the project progresses. That's absolutely critical.

-work holding is often tricky, a sash cramp fastened in a vice will often do the trick

-basically it's about careful bandsawing to the layout lines, taping or tacking the waste pieces back on to allow carefully bandsawing from the other aspect, pencilling in the interim shaping lines which you then bring down with a spokeshave (the only tricky bit with spokeshaving is the first and last inch with a flat sole spokeshave and the "roll" technique with a curved sole spokeshave), followed by a rasp or 60/80 grit paper on a hard backing pad. Nothing to it!

However, having said that I'm surprised the originals aren't recoverable. If it's solid wood then it can be dried and re-finished, if it's veneered then you can re-lay lifted veneers, and if it's upholstered then the original frame can be re-covered. Where's the problem?

 

[Jelly]

Thanks Custard, that's very useful information.

I'm not sure I'd describe myself reasonably competent, but I'll consider that to be my new status in the woodworking world if I'm actually able to do this successfully... Indeed I've seen a much more consistent output when working on unfamiliar tasks in the last few months since reading a rebuke to hobbyists who rush by yourself, It does after all stand to reason that I shouldn't be able to do something fast the first time I try it...

I'm going to have a crack at making one out of some spare redwood by way of a run-through if I'm successful (or close on) I'll draw up a design from photo's of the original, write a cutting list and get prices on the timber...

However, having said that I'm surprised the originals aren't recoverable. If it's solid wood then it can be dried and re-finished, if it's veneered then you can re-lay veneers on the original ground, and if it's upholstered then the original frame can be re-covered. Where's the problem?

I am too TBH, apparently they've suffered significant physical damage, I can only assume things have fallen over as the water rose or receded... I've been working all Christmas so I'm just working on second-hand information, I would be most annoyed if it comes to light thst the insurer has just consigned them all to the scrapheap out of convenience.

 

[AndyT]

Maybe not just out of convenience... it wouldn't need many hours of a professional's time to be more than the furniture is worth in a strictly market-driven decision. But if you could spend the time needed and put back the family connection that would have extra value beyond the monetary. And they do look like fun to make.
So make sure that they don't put any bits into the skip but save it all for you to assess.

 

[Spindle]

Hi

If the insurer wishes to write off the furniture will he sell it to you?

If so I'd buy it back and restore at leisure - such a shame when good honest furniture goes to waste.

Regards Mick

 

[Andy Kev.]

I don't know if this comes under the heading of Queen Anne but Issue 230 (April 2015) of Furniture and Cabinetmaking has an in depth article entitled Carved 18th Century-style ball and claw foot. Dunno if Queen Anne stuff had that kind of detail but it might be of some use.

 

[Woodmonkey]

I made a dressing table for the misses when I was not very experienced at all, as custard says they are not that hard if you follow the correct procedure. I used plans from a book, I'll see if I can dig it out.

 

[matthewwh]

Excellent Demo by Allan Batty on how to turn a simple QA leg here:

https://youtu.be/KfeLAHQSbqk?t=35m5s

Possibly not ideal if you are trying to match pre-existing components, but if you can get away with it, a relatively quick way to at least produce a set of blanks + a good excuse for getting a lathe if you don't already have one.

For anything much more complex you're into bandsawing the profiles on the square and then rasping out to shape.

 

[dickm]

PLEASE , please don't let the furniture get skipped, even if it means paying for it (unless the insurers want to play silly-Bs over price). Even if its "only" older rerpro, replacement is unlikely to be of anything like comparable quality. The insurers just want the cheapest answer they can swing. And the existing probably has some irreplaceable sentimental value to your Gran.
As others have said, dry it out, see what needs doing and (possibly) learn some news skills putting it back to useable form.

 

[Jelly]

I've got 4"*4"*22" blank of laminated redwood planed up and morticed, a ply template drawn, bandsawn and sanded, and I think I'm ready to give it a try... However from experience with the template I'm not 100% it has a tight enough turn with the current blade.

 

[Dovetaildave]

Hi Jelly,

It isn't all that difficult to spoke shave/file/rasp out the shape after bandsawing, I'm sure you'll gain a lot from it besides the legs.

One question though....What feet do you intend on having?

I ask as the first time I did it I was aiming for Ball and claw and in the end it was agreed that I didn't have quite enough wood to do it well enough to satisfy the grading criteria, so my teacher said I should turn a pad feet....that's when it became dangerous, turning a finished walnut cabriole on a Harrison graduate lathe as it tended to come flying off and across the room due to the unbalanced weight. Someone got a photo of me, crawling on hands and knees to the lathe and gingerly pressing the "on button".

I believe If you are aiming for pad feet, maybe you should turn them first, possibly even eccentric turning would be beneficial I read somewhere ?


If you intend on some light carving (corn husks) on the knee, remember to allow some extra wood for it on your template.

If the bandsaw blade isn't ideal, bow saw is an option, carving gouges can hog off waste down by the foot well.

Good luck,
Dave