Making a career out of woodworking

[houtslager]

You are very shy, Edward,there's nothing in your profile. I'd be interested to know at least what part of the country you are in (and which country for that matter).

me too 8)

 

[pooka]

Sorry for not responding sooner, as I have been away for a few days (some of that time spent undergoing an interview for the furniture course that I mentioned in my first post). Thanks a million to everyone that has taken the time to post their advice and opinions. It is good to hear of peoples' positive experiences, but hearing of negative experiences is very useful too so that I don't blind myself to some of the harsher realities of what I am likely to face if I make this career change. The posts here certainly give me a lot of food for thought.

While being interviewed for the furniture course yesterday, I took the opportunity to ask the college staff again about the employment prospects. I asked the same question of different staff when I was there for their open day a few months ago and got a generally positive response, but yesterday's answer was different (while still being positive in their eyes). Basically, I was told that the market for small productions of quality hand-made furniture, in Ireland, is limited and therefore difficult to get into, whereas there are very good employment prospects for graduates wishing to work on elements of furniture design, or CAD, in larger companies. Also, the market for teachers of woodworking skills in secondary schools is very good, apparently. The impression that I was left with was that a graduate of this course is more likely to end up working on the design or teaching side of woodworking rather than the actual manufacture of furniture, neither of which areas really appeal to me. This seems to fit with what several people have said already, and seems to match the experiences of Les's graduate friend exactly. That makes me view this particular course in a less positive light.

I spoke with another mature applicant for the same course, and his experiences were interesting too. He has been woodworking from an early age, and says he already has many of the skills that this course would teach. However, he has found that, while he can find employment when he looks for it, a lack of a formal qualification has worked against him - he believes that employers are reluctant to take on permanent employees who have no formal qualification, and that the lack of qualification also makes such employees much more costly to insure (and therefore less desirable as employees). However, the jobs that he has had were mainly in the fitted kitchen market - he had one job which involved hand-making furniture, but those jobs were very much harder to find. I also spoke to a former graduate of the course, who has been running his own business for the last few years - he told me that there is lots of work out there (mainly fitted kitchens), and he is constantly busy as a result, but major increases in insurance costs in the last few years (he employs two staff) are almost making it not worth his while to continue. It seems like insurers are gradually bleeding their customers dry when it comes to small businesses where dangerous machinery is used, which is a whole other angle to consider if starting a business in the woodworking area.

I don't know yet whether I will be offered a place on the course, but given their own perceptions of the employment prospects for their graduates, and the fact that doing the course would deplete any of my savings that could otherwise go towards funding a woodworking career via a different route, right now I'm not sure that this course is really the best option for me. Some of the other suggestions posted here, such as looking for employment with an existing woodworker, are certainly ones that I plan to explore further.

Thanks again to everyone.

 

[Noel]

Interesting angle on the insurance aspect. It's much the same up here in the North. The cost of public liability cover has tripled over the past few years as has employee cover. Car cover is even worse. All the ads on UK TV for car insurance alway have the wee message at the bottom - "Not available in Northern Ireland". The insurers, North and South have always have the excuse that a "Compo Culture"* exists and I guess they're not far off the mark. The 5m of us on this island certainly represent a captive market and can do little about it.
* Compensation Culture" - there's a street in Belfast where there's been something like 17 claims due to uneven paving stones in the last year.

Anyway, hope something happens with your plans and keep us up to date.

Rgds

noel

 

[pooka]

Hi Noel,

Interesting angle on the insurance aspect. It's much the same up here in the North. The cost of public liability cover has tripled over the past few years as has employee cover.

The whole insurance area was one that I had forgotten to consider, initially. Now that I think of it, I can remember being told by a tradesman, a few years ago, that he had a friend whose booming business (making windows, as far as I can remember) was in trouble because the only level of insurance cover he could afford (following a ridiculously high price increase) would allow only him to operate the bigger machinery - his one or two employees could only look on for that part of the work, the result being that a backlog of work started to build up, leading to annoyed customers. By the sound of things, the insurance situation might have worsened further since then.

The insurers, North and South have always have the excuse that a "Compo Culture"* exists and I guess they're not far off the mark.

On one of my trips back to Cork, a few months ago, I heard of yet another person who had been caught trying to falsely sue the Cork Corporation for a fall resulting from a damaged footpath. It turns out that the photo of the footpath, used as evidence by the claimant, had been successfully used by the same claimant several years before for a different claim. The compo culture certainly is a serious problem, but unfortunately it seems like the insurance companies are using it as justification for penalising everyone - that they are allowed to do so, and potentially put viable companies out of business as a result, is criminal and kinda depressing.

Anyway, hope something happens with your plans and keep us up to date.

Thanks. I will do - I believe that I won't hear back about whether I got a place in the course for another month or two, so I have even more time to consider the pros and cons of taking that route. Right now, my inclination is to continue woodworking as a hobby, funded by my existing career, but aiming to find my way into the woodworking industry in the longer term. In the meantime though, I plan to explore some other alternatives (e.g. change to part-time work to allow more time for developing woodworking, look for a job with an existing woodworker, etc.). Like Shady, I have tree-hugging genes (although no dolphin findling inclinations :wink: ), that longer-term will incline me more and more towards a career which is more holistic than my current career.

 

[DomValente]

Hi Tim,

Yes you can make a good living producing furniture. I was in the bar/restaurant business for many years and when I decided to " change my life" it was as a serious hobbyist that my business was born.
The most important and oldest trick in the book is Location,location, location, which is what I've done. My workshop is located in an expensive part of the world and experience has taught me, if the quality is there the customer will pay the right price and come back for more, you will not have to look for them. I remember my grandmother telling me, "follow your heart", yes,I know that's not awfully business like but in our profession you need to put everything you have into your work, if you don't it will show in the finished product. Perhaps you might find my entry on the off topic forum about self employed workers of interest.

Good luck
Dom

 

[Anonymous]

john/houtslager
apologies for being shy.
I'm located in SW england - have a workshop right in the centre of Dartmoor National park. Great on a sunny day but £*"& when it's raining.
It's not a very rich region and is relatively sparsely populated but with the events at which I exhibit I reckon around 40,000 people see my furniture each year. Just 0.05% hit rate on that number of people would give me more than enough business each year.



[/quote]

 

[Gill]

Hi Edward

One of the big problems with exhibitions is the same one that afflicts craft fairs. The organisers don't make their money from sales, they make it from footfall. It doesn't matter what the punters buy at the exhibition/fair so far as the organisers are concerned, so long as they pay an entry fee. As a result, they are marketed towards the masses and not exhibitors' potential customers.

To make a living out of woodworking, you'd probably need a completely different market to the punters who attend these events. These visitors will be searching for entertaining spectacle rather than premium artifacts which they can acquire.

Gill

 

[johnelliott]

To make a living out of woodworking, you'd probably need a completely different market to the punters who attend these events. These visitors will be searching for entertaining spectacle rather than premium artifacts which they can acquire.

How true, how very true, how very, very, very true

John

 

[Anonymous]

There you go with all your negative waves again.

Maybe there is some misunderstanding. I wasn't suggesting that exhibiting at events is 'probably a good idea'. I was relating my experience of exhibiting and IT WORKS VERY WELL FOR ME. How you exhibit and at which events is the key to it.

So please don't tell me it's a waste of time. I make a living out of it - as do many other people - both cabinet makers and other crafts.


Pooka,
I final word. There are many people (incl. me) out there who will offer advise. I would listen more to people that have made a success of it and give positive advise (ie. what works) than listen to people who have failed and give negative advise (what didn't work [for them]).

Right. That's it for me for forums.
I'm going back to being shy again.

 

[Chris Knight]

Edward,

I shouldn't let the negative vibes from a couple of folk put you off, I think if you stick around, you will find most of us are very positive actually.

I take it this is you http://www.dartmoorfurniture.co.uk/about.htm ? And here

It would be great if you would stay and continue to offer us your perspectives on a professional career, I know quite a few of the folk here have contemplated or are contemplating making such a switch.

 

[Noel]

Edward, nice site with beautiful furniture.

Rgds

Noel

 

[Gill]

Before you go back to lurking, Edward, I hope you'll accept an apology from me. My post was addressed to you personally and that was inappropriate - I was simply trying to point out in general terms that relying on craft fairs won't provide an income for most woodworkers. The craft fairs I've visited in the past don't have the sort of attendance that you describe and therefore wouldn't generate the business that you get. You've clearly been able to exploit a location with such a huge footfall that it doesn't matter if the vast majority of visitors don't do business with you. In that respect you're like Dom, who has a workshop in a densely populated and affluent part of the country.

I wasn't trying to discourage people from trying to make a living out of their hobby - I was just trying to point out that run of the mill craft fairs are probably an inefficient method of generating custom for the vast majority of woodworkers. A lot of craft fairs I've visited are organised very differently to the one that you've described and potential exhibitors need to be aware of this. You've given us the figure of a 0.05% hit rate - that means you get custom from 1 in 2,000 people who attend upon you. I'd be interested to know if other people who've exhibited at craft fairs have had the same hit rate as you. From conversations I've had in the past with people who've tried and failed at craft fairs, I suspect they won't have. This tends to make me think there are other factors that affect your trade positively which you may not be acknowledging here. I'd love to know more about how you operate and what has given you the adaptive edge that eludes so many.

I don't have any personal experience of exhibiting at craft fairs, Edward, and I respect your opinions as someone who has done so and succeeded. Nevertheless, I have visited a great number of them, I've spoken to exhibitors, and come to the conclusion that you either need an exceptional craft fair or an exceptional product to make a success out them. For example, one successful craftsman I met made clogs; although they weren't cheap, they were portable, immediately available and he had the artistic skills to make them very attractive. He also made a point of selecting his craft fairs very carefully because he believed that different fairs attracted different markets.

Someone else suggested recently (I can't remember who and I can't remember where ) that it can be a good idea to trade as a collective. That sounds very sensible to me. I grew up in a market town that was renowned for its weekly craft markets and people were only allowed to sell at the market if the manufacturer was in attendance to discuss his/her wares. They also had to be approved by a committee of other craft workers as producing work to a consistent and satisfactory standard. As a result, visitors would travel quite a distance and the craftsmen generated good trade, both for themselves and the town. It's many years since I returned to the town, but I understand the market is still thriving.

There are also certain towns that have a reputution for a particular type of trade and that reputation is sufficient to draw in further trade. One such town that springs to mind is Horncastle in Lincolnshire which has a plethora of antiques traders. (There's also Blackpool, with its plethora of chip shops !) A woodworker who had the chance to exploit such a community (of woodworkers) would probably be wise to do so.

I wasn't taking a pop at you, Edward, or gainsaying your experience; nor was it unreasonable for you to read my post and believe that I was. I just wanted to point out the need for people to consider the effectiveness of simply picking a craft fair and trying to sell their wares. It takes much more business skill than that.

Gill

 

[johnelliott]

I also think it would be great if Edward would stay, and I would be particularly interested in how he makes the economics of his set up work out.
I investigated the craft show thing and found it cost several hundred pounds just for the stand itself. When I attended a couple of these shows I couldn't see that the stands were doing anything like the amount of business necessary to cover the costs. Add to those costs the costs of renting and running a workshop and the whole thing is looking quite tricky.
I'm not saying that it is impossible to make a living making bespoke furniture, but if anyone tells me that it is possible and that they are doing it then I would like to hear more detail
John

 

[pooka]

Pooka,
I final word. There are many people (incl. me) out there who will offer advise. I would listen more to people that have made a success of it and give positive advise (ie. what works) than listen to people who have failed and give negative advise (what didn't work [for them]).

Thanks a lot for the advice edwardh. It is heartening to hear of someone making a successful career out of woodworking, and even more so when you continue to enjoy the work. I appreciate the encouragement, and I'd like to add my name to the list of those that hope you'll continue to post on the forum.

 

[Redhill Red]

Hi,

I think Gill's idea of a collective of some sort would be of intrest to a lot of members who have the skill to produce very good work but due to the resraints of work or the time it takes them to make furniture, find it is not viable to sell their goods , but if say a dozen or so members were contributing to a market stall or small shop and sharing the costs involved the chance's of success would surely increase.

I was thiking on a similarwhen after reading Gill's earlier post where due to her husbands redundancy she would like to earn from her hobby, a few year's ago I had to finish work due to disability and have really enjoyed woodwork as a hobby and have often thought of ways of trying to sell some of what I make to others apart from family and friends, but find that if you try to make to sell cheaply you cannot compete with the big outlets and if you try to build better quality it obviously takes longer, so you would not have the turnover to be able to even run a market stall, but a small collective of local makers would be able to produce a higher turnover and a more varied collection of furniture.

 

[Gill]

An interesting project has arisen on one of the scrollsaw forums I visit. A number of members are considering producing a catalogue of all their standard products and allowing each other to market them through ‘parties’. I get the impression that these parties are akin to those we associate with Tupperware or Ann Summers. Perhaps this type of activity is more common in the US than it is in the UK.

Nevertheless, it’s food for thought.

Gill

 

[johnelliott]

My wife has been involved in needlework of one kind or another for many years. Her main interest is in patchwork quilts. She, like most of us, has wondered about selling her work, even if the profit did nothing more than pay for some more materials.
We decided to have a good look at the possibility of selling, but found we didn't even need a good look before we found that the market is flooded with imported quilts of quite decent quality at prices that wouldn't even cover half the materials in this country.
It's basically the same story with other craft products.

One can easily find people who are involved with making and selling craft products and maybe they will tell you they are doing well at it. The economics of the situation would suggest that perhaps they have something else going for them.

Some years ago I was involved with guitar making. I visited a well known guitar maker and was impressed with the quality of his work, and the size and contents of his workshop. He told me about how many customers he had and that his business was doing well. It was only sometime later that I learned that his wife was a head teacher and that it was her income that covered the costs of his operation.
It took me a few more years to learn that the guitar business in this country cannot support individual makers unless they don't need to make money. I did, so I had to get out of the business even though I had got rather good at making guitars. Shame, but there you go.

I would advise anybody who was really good at their craft, whatever it might be, that if they need or want to make some money from it that rather than try to sell their produce they should either take students or better still, write a book about it. Writing non-fiction can, if you pick the right subject and write a good enough book, and get published, be surprisingly lucrative

John

 

[Shady]

Overall, I'd have to agree with John... The market is pretty darn tough.

His comments remind me that even if you're of the skill level/reputation and collectability of (say) David Charlesworth, you appear to need to write, teach and otherwise add to the income stream. Most of the other 'known' names also appear to be offering their tuition...

Bottom line, if those people have to do that, I ask myself why I'll do better... I'd love to be able to make a living out of cabinet making, but suspect that I could not...

 

[wizer]

I think creating a Catalogue/Website incorporating bespoke peaces of work for sale as well as offering each woodworker's services is a great idea

 

[Dewy]

I see this topic has been going a couple of weeks and think the advice has been good.
Dont do it.
A year ago in The Woodworker magazine was the Diary of a Woodworker who changed employment to make a living out of making furniture.
At the end of the series he was forced back into his previous employment because he just couldn't make a living out of it.