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Machining end-grain

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RogerS

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In my current project thread here (Set of circular segmented steps) I posted up this photo of what happened when my router tried to bite me.



Consensus was that this was due to me trying to rout what is effectively end-grain. But then I got to thinking.

Running the ends of, say, window rails on a spindle moulder (ie end-grain), we don't get that horrible mess that I ended up with on the router table. True...you put a spelch block behind it to stop breakout..but in my example above, the rest of the wood is acting as that anyway.

So what gives ? Puzzled.
 

Trevanion

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The router isn’t the greatest tool for pattern milling, I would’ve done that on the spindle moulder with the bigger arc to the cutter to cut down of the chance of tear out. Were you cutting against the rotation of the cutter and with the grain as much as possible?

Or, was it wood down or template down on the table?
 

RogerS

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Trevanion":2re7v3v9 said:
Were you cutting against the rotation of the cutter
Yes. But it's possible that my attention wandered and that momentarily reversed direction (ie climb cutting) for a nanosecond ? Is that what you were thinking ?

Edit: looking at the direction the wood has been 'bent' I now think this unlikely

Trevanion":2re7v3v9 said:
and with the grain as much as possible?
Not sure what you mean. I was machining end-grain to all intents and purposes at this point on the arc.
 

RogerS

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transatlantic":2k3sxav0 said:
Were you doing a climb cut when this happend (moving left to right)?
That's what Trevanion asked...and I don't think so (even unintentionally) if you look at the way the wood has been bent.
 

Doug71

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It's hard to tell without knowing which way up you were doing things but depending which way you were going you might have been cutting against the grain which is worse then cutting end grain square on.
 

Jonathan S

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Rodger.....no technical explanation but this kind of thing happens only to easy on a router because of the high speed, one of my guys lost the end of a digit doing something simular on a router

If I was cutting that on a router I would drop the speed to min.
Put a couple of layers of tap on the ply template.
Set the cutter up so its only cutting a few mm deep.
Take multiple passes going down a few mm at a time.
When finished take the tape off the template and do a clean up cut with cutter fully out.

Takes a little longer but save's on undies.

Jonathan

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RogerS

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Jonathan S":2dk38sph said:
Rodger.....no technical explanation but this kind of thing happens only to easy on a router because of the high speed, one of my guys lost the end of a digit doing something simular on a router

If I was cutting that on a router I would drop the speed to min.
Put a couple of layers of tap on the ply template.
Set the cutter up so its only cutting a few mm deep.
Take multiple passes going down a few mm at a time.
When finished take the tape off the template and do a clean up cut with cutter fully out.

Takes a little longer but save's on undies.

Jonathan

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That's a really smart idea, Jonathan. Second time I did it, I manually adjusted to take a tiny amount off at a time. I think right at the end I took too much off in one bite.

PS I go commando :shock:
 

Brandlin

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I've routed a few guitar bodies using a pattern following bit and a thin ply pattern and have had this happen to me - especially when cutting the horns of the guitar body. I've also seen much worse.

You have to go VERY slow and take VERY small cuts when you are basically running across end grain.
 

Jacob

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I hate routers so wouldn't have used one at all, unless unavoidable.
After band-sawing as close as possible I'd have spokeshaved and no80 scraped, because I like using them and easy downhill on the grain. Or if in a hurry I'd use the sanding disc and table on my lathe. It's very handy fast and potentially very precise but they are sort of unfashionable nowadays
 
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Probably a silly idea, but it would be cool if you could somehow setup a (non oscillating) spindle sander with a bearing, much like how you would do with a bearing guided router bit. Then cut almost to the line on the bandsaw and sand the rest.

Sorry - doesn't help your situation, just thinking out loud

Edit : Oh they do exist!
 

Jacob

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transatlantic":lnhaczup said:
Probably a silly idea, but it would be cool if you could somehow setup a (non oscillating) spindle sander with a bearing, much like how you would do with a bearing guided router bit. Then cut almost to the line on the bandsaw and sand the rest.

Sorry - doesn't help your situation, just thinking out loud

Edit : Oh they do exist!
These are good in a drill press or drill stand https://www.ebay.co.uk/c/1604296476
 

Yojevol

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Roger, I think you should have stayed with your instincts as stated on 15 Dec and kept away from exposed end grain.
Brian
 

ColeyS1

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Is that a glue join further to the left of the picture? Looks rather gappy so I'm assuming not?

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RogerS

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Yojevol":215zq4n3 said:
Roger, I think you should have stayed with your instincts as stated on 15 Dec and kept away from exposed end grain.
Brian
I had to go revisit that thread ! The post you refer to was following a comment by another member to simply run the floorboards out and round their ends off.

As you can see here, my method has minimised the end-grain where it matters ie the front of the step.

 

Trevanion

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The photo looks like a classic case of climb cutting gone wrong but you say you were cutting against the rotation? I assume then the template was up-facing? I can't see how it could've done that much damage if you were running it the correct way :|. Every split off and snaped piece looks like it would correspond to the router cutter coming into contact with it and "running away" so to speak.

I've got one of these Trend planing heads for the spindle moulder that makes short work of pattern work when used in conjunction with a ring-fence or a bearing ring. Of course, there are jobs it can't do and you have to pull out the router but the quality of cut and safety is supreme with the spindle moulder in my opinion when you've got it properly jigged up and guarded properly.

 

RogerS

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Trevanion":1b7afg57 said:
The photo looks like a classic case of climb cutting gone wrong but you say you were cutting against the rotation? I assume then the template was up-facing? I can't see how it could've done that much damage if you were running it the correct way :|. Every split off and snaped piece looks like it would correspond to the router cutter coming into contact with it and "running away" so to speak.

I've got one of these Trend planing heads for the spindle moulder that makes short work of pattern work when used in conjunction with a ring-fence or a bearing ring. Of course, there are jobs it can't do and you have to pull out the router but the quality of cut and safety is supreme with the spindle moulder in my opinion when you've got it properly jigged up and guarded properly.

I did think about the ring fence etc but didn't have any bits and too expensive to justify.
 

Trevanion

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RogerS":3gkt0air said:
I did think about the ring fence etc but didn't have any bits and too expensive to justify.
I don't blame you! I'd never pay Trend's prices for their re-branded Chinese junk! :lol: I paid about £50 for it second-hand like new and I think they were about £200 new from Trend, and at least £50 cheaper again from elsewhere like Axminster for the exact same block. Similar results can be achieved with a rebate block with the scribing knives removed, even better results if it's a shear cutter.
 

Doug71

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I know you shouldn't and I wouldn't advise people to do it but I often make climb cuts with the router. I find if you are for example doing an arch which is joined in segments each segment is half with the grain and half against the grain. I sometimes find it easier and less likely to chip if I take small climb cuts moving with the grain then finish with a really fine cut against the grain.

I only do this with the hand held router and work piece clamped securely, wouldn't do it on a router table as it can pull your fingers in if it gets away from you.
 
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