looking for a chisel set, what should i get

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Surely the point in these fora, is for those who have travelled the learning cure, to pass on what they have learned and make the same unnecessary for the uninitiated. What is so wrong with buying a tool just once; the right one first time. I bought all kinds of tools throughout my time woodworking, without the benefit of the Internet and through the nadir of Western tool quality. Others do not have to suffer the expense and waste of time I did, because new tools are better than they have been for years, and there are many who have experienceand can offer good advice on the best of the vintage. The notion that you just buy any tool and practice with it is flawed, when there is so many who know and understand what makes a good tool from a bad one and can give the best advice. Buy a good tool and have it work correctly from the get go and you will shave money and confusion and get working wood sooner. It is a fallacy that you need to practice on a junk tool before you get the good ones. Skip the pain and confusion and get working wood with tools that will reward your efforts, not stifle them.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

..... What is so wrong with buying a tool just once; the right one first time. .....

Nothing at all if that was possible but as a beginner; you might not be able to afford it, you need several, you don't really know what you need, you don't really know what is good value, you have a whole raft of "experts" telling you that everything you have already got is garbage and you need to spend a lot of money. Even worse when you start picking up on crazy sharpening, tuning, flattening and all the other modern fashionable stuff. Or some lunatic talks you into going Japanese, etc. etc.
It's a wonder anybody gets started! In fact many don't - there are too many obstacles set up for them by the "experts". :roll:

 

[G S Haydon]

I wonder if people are as confused as you think Jacob. I think forum member Reggie is a prime example of a level headed guy who can make up his own mind on tools based on his budget and his aspirations.
Why would you be a lunatic to go Japanese?

 

[Reggie]

For sure and I own a Japanese flush saw :-D

Best advice I can ever give is listen to what everyone has to say about a subject, empirical answers are great and so are differences of opinion and if something doesn't seem right, ask questions Watch as many videos as you can of craftsmen demonstrating what you want to attempt, then make your own mind up, cheap and cheerful is great and so is expensive, learning to sharpen, whichever method you use, is going to be unavoidable and it'll be the same method for cheap or expensive chisels.

I notice that the images on the previous page show some really cruddy chisels, we're obviously not talking about buying a set like that when we advocate cheap, there comes a point where you will have to make a decision based on overall quality of the tools yourself which is the same as anything in life.

 

[bugbear]

I wish it was the case that all cheap chisels are ok. May I offer an example of what to avoid?

I bought these about 15 years ago when I was getting into woodturning. They came from a shop selling cheap tat imported from China, which was a novelty at the time. I can't remember the price but they were probably about £3 for a set of 4 sizes.



I don't think anyone should try and use these as chisels.

Something tells me these are not as bad as you think!

Something tells me Andy knows more about these chisels than you do, given that he owns them, and may well have had the misfourtune to use them,

First hand experience, which you keep telling us trumps all else.

BugBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I wonder if people are as confused as you think Jacob. I think forum member Reggie is a prime example of a level headed guy who can make up his own mind on tools based on his budget and his aspirations.
Why would you be a lunatic to go Japanese?

You would be a lunatic to go Japanese because Jacob doesn't like Japanese. The same as you would be lunatic to use anything other than an oilstone - Jacob doesn't like things other than oilstones. :?

 

[AndyT]

If anyone wants to buy one of these Diamond brand chisels I've been watching one on eBay which failed to sell - despite the low opening price of £2.49 - http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=141023913874


Maybe customers could not see the quality of the steel in a simple photo.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Is that address correct? I can't get a picture - not that I need one. :lol:

 

[Cheshirechappie]

If anyone wants to buy one of these Diamond brand chisels I've been watching one on eBay which failed to sell - despite the low opening price of £2.49 - http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=141023913874


Maybe customers could not see the quality of the steel in a simple photo.

"A bevel edged firmer carving mortice chisel".

No wonder nobody bid for it - it's suffering a chronic identity crisis!

 

[Jacob]

I wonder if people are as confused as you think Jacob. I think forum member Reggie is a prime example of a level headed guy who can make up his own mind on tools based on his budget and his aspirations.
Why would you be a lunatic to go Japanese?

You would be a lunatic to go Japanese because Jacob doesn't like Japanese. The same as you would be lunatic to use anything other than an oilstone - Jacob doesn't like things other than oilstones. :?

Nonsense. I love Japanese things and have been there - only a week in Tokyo but hope to go again some time for longer. Possibly a bike tour.
But you would be making a mistake if you found sawing with a western saw difficult and believed a Jap saw would be a magical solution to your problems. They are regularly touted as a sensible alternative to western saws, which I don't think they are at all - not least because of the expense (not sharpenable).
I recommend oilstones because they are cheap, simple, traditional and work well.

PS yes I have had experience of Diamond brand - a spokeshave and a chisel. They were OK, solidly made but simple, perfectly usable with good steel etc. Found in a box of left-over jumble - I wouldn't go out of my way to buy one but they were OK as freebies. Good chisels are cheap anyway.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, let me reassure you that I did once hang a door using a chisel just like that, as a favour for a friend. I had no tools with me but she had bought a brand new chisel for the purpose, not knowing that it would not be ready for use. Fortunately we were in Yorkshire so I was able to hone the chisel on the stone doorstep!


The edge lasted just long enough to cut one hinge mortise before it needed to be resharpened for the next. Yes, it was an educational experience - I learned not to rely on cheap Chinese chisels!

Er, have I misunderstood? It seems you did rely on a Chinese chisel and got the job done. Not bad considering you didn't even have an oilstone! What else did you expect it to do, make you a cup of tea or something?

 

[AndyT]

Jacob, let me reassure you that I did once hang a door using a chisel just like that, as a favour for a friend. I had no tools with me but she had bought a brand new chisel for the purpose, not knowing that it would not be ready for use. Fortunately we were in Yorkshire so I was able to hone the chisel on the stone doorstep!


The edge lasted just long enough to cut one hinge mortise before it needed to be resharpened for the next. Yes, it was an educational experience - I learned not to rely on cheap Chinese chisels!

Er, have I misunderstood? It seems you did rely on a Chinese chisel and got the job done. Not bad considering you didn't even have an oilstone! What else did you expect it to do, make you a cup of tea or something?

Yes, I got the job done.

Was it done neatly? No.
Quickly? No.
Did I enjoy doing it and feel pride in the work? No.

My late father used to swear that he had managed to repair a perished valve rubber on his bike by using the stalk of a dandelion. Would he have recommended it as being just as good as piece of valve rubber? No.

The OP was asking about upgrading from his current chisels to a small number of good quality newly made ones. I don't think any of us would suggest that he go out and buy a set of "Diamond Brand" chisels even if one specimen can allegedly cover all possible types!

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, let me reassure you that I did once hang a door using a chisel just like that, as a favour for a friend. I had no tools with me but she had bought a brand new chisel for the purpose, not knowing that it would not be ready for use. Fortunately we were in Yorkshire so I was able to hone the chisel on the stone doorstep!


The edge lasted just long enough to cut one hinge mortise before it needed to be resharpened for the next. Yes, it was an educational experience - I learned not to rely on cheap Chinese chisels!

Er, have I misunderstood? It seems you did rely on a Chinese chisel and got the job done. Not bad considering you didn't even have an oilstone! What else did you expect it to do, make you a cup of tea or something?

Yes, I got the job done.

Was it done neatly? No.
Quickly? No.
Did I enjoy doing it and feel pride in the work?

No.You can't fault the chisel though can you, it was you that left your kit at home. Brand new, only a doorstep to sharpen it on but the job still got done! I see that as a recommendation. :lol: CHINESE CHISEL SAVES THE DAY!!

My late father used to swear that he had managed to repair a perished valve rubber on his bike by using the stalk of a dandelion. Would he have recommended it as being just as good as piece of valve rubber? No.

No one is saying "just as good" - what I'm saying (and what your experience demonstrates) is "not as bad as they say" (and I don't believe your old dad!)

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,
Re. Japanese tools:

You can get a first class Japanese saw for no more than a first class Western one, sometimes less. Replaceable blades mean sharpening is never going to be a problem, though some Japanese saws are resharpenable. Sharpening a 20 ppi dovetail saw is no fun and not free, a good file costs money, if you can even get one, and a sawset with a narrow anvil. My Japanese saw cost me less than any good quality Western saw that was available at the time, the blade is hardened to Rc 62 so will not need replacing for ages, (western saws are about Rc 52) and cuts so well you would not believe it. I have a Pax dovetail saw, which is a bloody good saw and I would heartily recommend, but my Japanese saw leaves it for dead. And was cheaper, with it's replacement blade, which I haven't used yet with no sign of having to any time soon. Japanese tools are just another way, there is no lunacy about it. And waterstones are no more expensive than oilstones, have you seen the price of a translucent Arkansas stone recently? But an artificial Japanese waterstone which will sharpen to a similar level would be about 30 pounds, and get the edge quicker. It is just different ways. And since I have actually used both Western and Japanese tools, I think I have a bit more basis on which to comment than dismissing things off hand as being lunacy.

Regarding cheap tools, of any variety, you have to ask the question, what is missing, that is inherent in the dearer tool. Assuming that we are not being robbed, there must, logically, be something lacking in the cheaper tool that is present in the dearer one. If that thing is something you can live without, then they are worth considering, but if it is something you need that is lacking, you have to rethink. A beginner may not realise that something is lacking in a tool that someone with more experience (and who actually cares) will find glaringly obvious. It is cruelly misleading to just advise they practice with them, as if practicing will ever make up for a tool that inherently can not work. Practice will not magically make a high carbon steel tool out of junk metal, nor improve the hardening and tempering and give the tool a sharp edge the steel will not allow. You can chop ten billion dovetails, but never improve over mediocre, if the chisels cross section won't allow access to the acute corners. The difference between a good tool and a poor one is often very subtle, but makes a lot of difference to the user. A good craftsman cannot do good work with poor tools, a beginner will be hamstrung from the outset and be sucked into the myth that woodwork is hard. It is not and shouldn't take hour upon hour of tedious practice and disappointing results after disappointing result. This is the real fallacy that abounds, not that expensive tools and unnatural sharpening practices are the way. I guarantee that a beginner, with the right tool, sharp, will get great results from the outset. It really is that easy.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

Hello

....... Assuming that we are not being robbed, there must, logically, be something lacking in the cheaper tool that is present in the dearer one.

Better materials, better made (shape) better finish - machining ,polishing etc

.....a tool that inherently can not work.

Won't work, I agree. But this is a self evident truth and doesn't of itself exclude cheap, even poorly made, tools. You get a lot of self evident truths masking as arguments in these threads

Practice will not magically make a high carbon steel tool out of junk metal, nor improve the hardening and tempering and give the tool a sharp edge the steel will not allow.

Part self evident truth- but you can get a sharp edge on less than ideal steel, probably easier in fact, but it won't last as long

. You can chop ten billion dovetails, but never improve over mediocre, if the chisels cross section won't allow access to the acute corners.

So you alter the cross section with a file or a grindstone. You have to use your brain a bit. Quality has nothing to do with it - it's about shape. There are other wheezes of course - the most common being to over cut - then you can get the waste out with a narrow firmer, if this is all you have

..... A good craftsman cannot do good work with poor tools,

Except for the self evident truth component ("poor tools" defined as unable to do good work) this is not true. The main issue being more frequent sharpening

........ I guarantee that a beginner, with the right tool, sharp, will get great results from the outset. It really is that easy.

Mike.

You can 't guarantee this and it isn't that easy. A big delusion. These forums abound with tales of woe from beginners who have all the right kit but still can't make it work. Mainly because the know FA about methods and techniques - it's about practice, not the tools. Even worse - beginners who have set about flattening and "tuning" expensive top quality tools and making them worse in the process.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Better steel, machining, polishing, better profile. Yes, these are all things we want in a tool, spend a bit more money and have it from the outset. You can regrind profiles, but a beginner doesn't know what that is or how. And assuming the steel is any good, easy to draw the temper and ruin it completely.Sometimes poor steel isn't easier to sharpen either, some cheap tools have a lot of chrome in them, a puppy to sharpen and a mediocre cutting edge anyway. They look shiney though. And a beginner who knows FA about technique will know none of this and be even less likely to own grinding equipment and that know how to reshape tools either.

And with some good advice from these fora, beginners can fill holes in their knowledge about techniques and get great results from their great tools. Good knowledge from here will be scattered on stones ground, if that person has garbage tools.

I do not advise expensive tools, I do not waste my money, or want to waste anyone else's, but there is a lower limit to a tools price, where it can not perform as we want, as you simply cannot get something for next to nothing. I certainly wouldn't advise buying a poor tool and taking to the grindstone to try and get it to work. The craftsmen at, let us say, Ashley Iles, are better at doing that than we will ever likely be, since they have done millions of tools. It can be done, and I have done it, but it would have been better if I knew someone who could have told me which tool would have been a better buy first time, so I would not have had to do so.

Unfortunately, woodwork requires some tools, that cost some money. Anyone who wants to do woodwork as a great hobby, or a profession has to understand this sooner or later. If they think they can do woodwork well, enjoy it and improve for the price of cheap tat, we would do them a greater service disabusing them of that notion from the beginning. High end, boutique tools are unnecessary, but will work very well and last a lifetime, so I wold never put anyone off getting some if they fancy them. But I am ferociously against encouraging beginners to buy poor tools or waste their time trying to use them, if they I'll never get the results I know is possible and could not get with those poor tools myself. The middle ground of workable tools at a good price, sensible advice on how to fettle minor, but fixable problems and good technique (not dodges, they can find these out for themselves if they need them) is all I try to give.

Mike.

 

[AndyT]

Hi Toby,

Have you decided what to get yet?

 

[GazPal]

Hello,

And with some good advice from these fora, beginners can fill holes in their knowledge about techniques and get great results from their great tools. Good knowledge from here will be scattered on stones ground, if that person has garbage tools.

I do not advise expensive tools, I do not waste my money, or want to waste anyone else's, but there is a lower limit to a tools price, where it can not perform as we want, as you simply cannot get something for next to nothing. I certainly wouldn't advise buying a poor tool and taking to the grindstone to try and get it to work. The craftsmen at, let us say, Ashley Iles, are better at doing that than we will ever likely be, since they have done millions of tools. It can be done, and I have done it, but it would have been better if I knew someone who could have told me which tool would have been a better buy first time, so I would not have had to do so.

Mike.

This is where listening to and receiving tuition (One to one or online) from proven craftsmen:teachers pays dividends, rather than being influenced via DIY writers or tool sales technicians who's taste/preferences vary depending on their employment or the need to write/publish articles. Being published doesn't qualify the writer as being any good as a craftsman:teacher, whereas a proven track record of consistently high quality work and successful teaching does.

IMHO the ones to avoid are those who teach, yet find pupils consistently falling short of completing their projects by the course's end.

------------

Tool quality is mighty variable, but choice needs to suit the user's pocket/budget. Professional level tooling isn't necessary for someone to participate on an amateur/DIY level, but identifying tools of reasonable quality can be extremely difficult. Nobody wants to find themselves lumbered with rubbish tools, but we're all guilty of buying cheaply at some point or another.

All I can recommend is to buy from among the better known toolmakers. Tools branded/stamped with the maker's mark tend to be of at least reasonable quality, as a maker will seldom place their name on poor quality tools. Buy from among established tool lines, but try not to be hoodwinked into buying old tools due to "assumed" tool steel quality. Crucible cast/choice tool steel can be just as variable in quality as any other steel and you'll tend to find the good old tools were worn out - because they were damned good - rather than shelved for re-sale at a later date in next to pristine condition.

 

[tobytools]

Hi Toby,

Have you decided what to get yet?

hey Andy, ye im gona go with the:
3mm
6mm
19mm
was gona get 25mm but i have a few to play with so ill buy as i need.
Ashely iles
im gona order them in next few days.
when i get them i let u know what i think

 

[Harbo]

Ashley Iles - good choice.


Rod