lie Nielson Brinze no 4 Plane Advise sought

[deema]

I visited the Axminster demonstration day for the other week and in a moment of weakness bought a bronze no 4 plane. This last weekend, I finally got to 'play' with the new toy, but after less than 5 minutes my euphoria turned into dispair. I was using it to clean up some oak that I have edged plywood with for a cabinet. After half a dozen cuts, where the plane was making light work of the task I looked at the sole to see what if any shavings had got stuck in the throat. The sole of the plane at the nose and heal were badly scored and scuffed. The rest of the plane was unmarked. There was no dirt / foreign particles causing the offensive problem.

I have spoken to Axminster and arranged for the plane to be collected and the cast iron Lie Nielson sent as replacement. I am rather disappointed as I had saved up in the piggy bank for a nice Bronze plane that would not suffer the scourge of rust. Do you think I have been too hasty in changing from Bronze to Cast Iron?

 

[Jacob]

Many (all?) the modern planes including the expensive ones use inferior and softer material than the older cast iron Stanleys/Records.
It was the first thing I noticed when I bought a Veritas and then a Clifton. Both scratched very easily.

 

[Racers]

Jacobs degree in metallurgy come to the fore!

The cast iron in older planes forms a hard skin making it more resistant to scratching.
These days the quality of any material is superior, we have ways of analysing the composition making a more consistent product.
You can still make thin castings and machine things badly but the consistency of the material is better.

Both Bronze and Steel will rust, I coat my tools in Briwax which protects them well.

I have a LN 60 1/2 with a scratched sole it works fine.

Pete

 

[deema]

Thanks Pete,

My concern is that after a few swipes down the wood, the degree of scoring is more than I have from another LN plane I have that is cast iron after a year of good use. I don't want to be flattening the sole every month or so of the No 4, not after parting with the National Income of a small nation to buy it. I accept scratches will occur and totally accept that, it's the degree and ease with which the surface has degraded that is alarming. I will take some pics in the morning and post them.

 

[Jacob]

Jacobs degree in metallurgy come to the fore!

The cast iron in older planes forms a hard skin making it more resistant to scratching.

Yes. Probably. They don't seem to get softer when you take off the surface so I'm doubtful about this.

These days the quality of any material is superior, we have ways of analysing the composition making a more consistent product.

Except it scratches more easily, which increases friction and makes it inferior.

....
Both Bronze and Steel will rust,

Bronze doesn't rust but it's softer and more expensive than steel - hence the iron age following the bronze age. Preference for steel wasn't just a fashion statement.
Bronze tools are just for collectors - you aren't expected to use them! :lol: :lol:
So you have a degree in metallurgy Pete? I didn't know that.

 

[MMUK]

Bronze doesn't rust

Erm yes it does. When bronze comes into contact with water, it oxidises. This is when you get the green film appearing. It is actually the copper content oxidising. Oxidising leads to rusting.

 

[Berncarpenter]

Bronze doesn't rust

Erm yes it does. When bronze comes into contact with water, it oxidises. This is when you get the green film appearing. It is actually the copper content oxidising. Oxidising leads to rusting.

I have owned a bronze Lie-Nielson block plane for over 10 years ,it has never shown any sign of rusting in all that time.It's used for on site work and hasnt had a cosy life. I agree its soft and plywood would mark the sole but its easy to put right.

Cheers Bern

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Rust is ferrous oxide - bronze doesn't contain iron, so can't rust. I would have thought the hard skin on cast iron would have been machined off so wouldn't actually be present on the finished plane?

 

[MMUK]

Rust is ferrous oxide - bronze doesn't contain iron, so can't rust

:roll:


All ferrous metals will rust in their own way.

 

[Tom K]

Rust is ferrous oxide - bronze doesn't contain iron, so can't rust

:roll:


All ferrous metals will rust in their own way.

(homer) Of course bronze an alloy of copper and tin is decidedly non ferrous though ! :lol: :roll: :roll: =D>

 

[Jacob]

Rust is ferrous oxide - bronze doesn't contain iron, so can't rust.

Yes

I would have thought the hard skin on cast iron would have been machined off so wouldn't actually be present on the finished plane?

It seems not. Old cast iron planes remain virtually unscratchable for ever. I don't believe the thing about a hard skin. Cast iron is used in many applications with machined surfaces.

 

[MIGNAL]

Maybe the correct technical term is corrosion?

 

[Vann]

All ferrous metals will rust in their own way.

Rust is ferrous oxide - bronze doesn't contain iron, so can't rust

Of course bronze an alloy of copper and tin is decidedly non ferrous though

But Lie-Nielsen bronze planes contain iron - in fact two irons; the cap iron and the cutting iron :mrgreen:

But seriously, my understanding is that most metals oxidize - and when ferrous metals oxidise it's called rust. I don't think it's correct to call non-ferrous oxidisation "rust".

On the subject of iron scratching: while Lie-Nielsen and Veritas use a ductile cast iron, Clifton claim to use a good quality grey cast iron (i.e the same stuff as old Record & Stanley planes), yet it seems to scratch far more readily than the old planes. Maybe the hard crust forms with age?

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Racers]

Yes the crust forms with age its why you have problems starting to flatten old planes.
I thought Clifton used ductile cast iron!

My 60 1/2 bronze cap isn't as shiny as it was!

A Gold plane wouldn't rust, may be we can get Carl Holty to make one.

Pete

 

[NickWelford]

A Gold plane wouldn't rust, may be we can get Carl Holty to make one.

Pete

Now be sensible. That would be soft!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I wouldn't fancy trying to draw a Clifton plane into a wire! Sorry to be pedantic, Pete - it's malleable, not ductile. Vann - I wasn't aware that cast iron hardened with age - great if true. I suspect the old planes were made of a better grade of iron?

Sorry Pete. I've just wiki'ed it. Ductile cast iron does exist - there's a plethora of other elements in it.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I thought Carl Holtey's planes were made of gold already. :lol:

 

[Jacob]

Yes the crust forms with age

I doubt it somehow

its why you have problems starting to flatten old planes.

It's a problem cos it's hard.

I thought Clifton used ductile cast iron!

Whatever it is it's soft - big scratch across my Clifton 4 which you wouldn't get on an old Stanley or Record

 

[RKrush]

I believe the difference between older and modern planes is that new planes are made from ductile cast iron. The iron in older planes (grey iron, I think) is harder and more brittle. Newer have more impact resistance, but are softer hence scratch more easily. Drop an old plane and it will shatter, and new one will bend.

Rust is a term for oxidised iron. Bronze will oxidise. It is just semantics to discuss whether bronze rusts or not. It would be more interesting whether bronze oxidises slower?

 

[Richard T]

I don't know what recipe Tom LN uses to cast his bronze planes, but if it is common (these days) phosphor bronze, that is pretty tough. Copper and Tin atoms, in the right proportions, fit together well. The tin atoms neatly fill the gaps between the copper atoms and the result is far tougher than either of its elemental, pure ingredients.

Pure Iron is soft. I saw a programme not so long ago with Adam Hart Davis in which they made swords from bronze and iron and had a play sword fight with them. The bronze knocked lumps out of the iron.

When a small amount of carbon is mixed evenly with pure iron, the carbon fills the gaps in the same way tin fills the gaps in copper and we get the toughest yet - steel.

Cast iron is dirty - smelted iron ore produces about 80% iron and 20% of carbon and assorted other stuff in an uneven mixture. The breakthrough with iron (The Iron Age) came about when cast iron was worked hot (wrought) and it's impurities were squeezed out leaving pure-ish iron with long, thin layers of crud left in it. Lovely for working into any form and not prone to rust because of the layers.

Cast iron is dirty and brittle and cheap. It's hard but not tough. It will stand up to the rubbing over wood as a plane sole very well but not much else, ( weak structures etc.) Wood will scratch it as we all know but it's not the kind of metal that looks bad for it ... it's naff to start with.

It does not come up to a nice finish so the scratches do not show. They're there though. Bronze does come up to a wonderful finish (people used to make bronze mirrors) and it is inevitable that such a shiny surface will show scratches immediately. It's not that it is too soft for the job, it just takes a shine too well when new. A bronze plane sole looks better when evenly scratched all over - it's not going to wear much faster than cast iron. All plane soles look the same after a while.

I don't know, but the 'ductile' cast iron that the modern makers use is probably something close to pure iron (mild steel?) and softer than bronze.

Iron rusts when it oxidises and eventually falls apart. The copper in bronze produces verdigris when it oxidises ... very slowly over years and with handling, a patina develops than nullifies any corrosion.

So it's swings and round-a-bouts really. (Another use for cast iron.)