Leather and Rust

[JonnyW]

Sorry if this topic has been done to death. I tried searching but had no luck.

A few weeks ago I bought a new Lie Nielsen dovetail and carcass saw. I treated them both to new leather cases also - just because.

I read on the tinterweb about the dangers of leather coming in contact with steel. Horror stories about new chisels coming out of their leather roles after a couple of days, looking like they've been on the deck of the Titanic for a couple weeks.

Some say it's the chemicals used to treat the leather reacting with the steel; others say it's how the leather holds moisture etc etc. Steel tools still rusting after being dipped in oil.

Some have applied a neutralising agent to the leather.

Has anyone experienced this problem? And what did you do to stop it?

Thanks guys for your input - it's much appreciated

Jonny

 

[dickm]

Have never had leather toolholders of any sort, so no relevant experience, but isn't leather tanned with....er... tannin, which is renowned for reacting with ferrous metals?

 

[JonnyW]

Yes that's what I've read.

However, Lie Nielsen 'apparently' use vegetable tanned leather for that reason.

I've emailed them to get this confirmed.

Jonny

 

[Cheshirechappie]

In August 1990, I treated myself to a Connell leather roll for my auger bits (still got the despatch note, hence the dating accuracy). It's still in use, and exactly 25 years on there's no hint of rust on any of the bits. That may be partly down the fact that the bit roll is kept in dry conditions, though not in centrallly-heated luxury. I've no idea how the leather was tanned, though.

My steel scrapers are also stored in a leather wallet of rather more recent vintage. No problems there, either.

 

[NickWelford]

Many knives are held in leather sheaves too.......

 

[JonnyW]

Thanks guys.

I received an email from LN, who confirmed that they used vegetable tanning. So no problems with their sheaths or tool roles etc.

Ive never heard of any issues with leather and ferrous metals etc, until I stumbled upon a random thread from a U.S. forum. Lots of gun owners and owners of woodworking tools, categorically stating that they would never store 'long term' their tools or guns in leather roles/sheaths/cases etc due to the acidic tannin used.

So worth noting.

Thanks again

Ionny

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Tannin and tanning are not the same thing. In fact leather used to be tanned with dog poo in Victorian Britain. :|

I store my chisels in a leather tool roll and as long as they have been put away dry, have never rusted, even slightly.

Mike.

 

[JonnyW]

Thanks Mike. Noted. This is a new learning curve for me!

I think the problem is over thinking on my behalf. You read stuff and worry!!!

Jonny

 

[Glynne]

I have LN chisels and a LN leather roll and have had no problems with rust.
I do remember a conversation with Peter Sefton who mentioned that sometimes rust can occur with leather tool rolls but I'm guessing that is probably down to the tanning so if you have a LN roll you should be fine.

 

[Peter Sefton]

My understanding is that veg tan is the best for tools, but leather is not advised if the workshop is damp as the leather draws the moisture out of the air. Leather is great for shoes as it draws the moister from your feet.

My school chisels are in leather veg tan rolls but kept in plastic boxes with a VCI in each box, they have been fine.

One of my old sets of chisels has corroded in a leather roll and this may be down to the leather or damp, I will never know!

Cheers Peter

 

[JonnyW]

Glynne/Peter. Thank you for you replies.

Good point there Peter thanks.

Jonny

 

[JohnPW]

Have never had leather toolholders of any sort, so no relevant experience, but isn't leather tanned with....er... tannin, which is renowned for reacting with ferrous metals?

Yes that's what I've read.

However, Lie Nielsen 'apparently' use vegetable tanned leather for that reason.

I've emailed them to get this confirmed.

Jonny

Thanks guys.

I received an email from LN, who confirmed that they used vegetable tanning. So no problems with their sheaths or tool roles etc.

Ive never heard of any issues with leather and ferrous metals etc, until I stumbled upon a random thread from a U.S. forum. Lots of gun owners and owners of woodworking tools, categorically stating that they would never store 'long term' their tools or guns in leather roles/sheaths/cases etc due to the acidic tannin used.

So worth noting.

Thanks again

Ionny

Err...but doesn't vegetable tanning use tannin? I would have thought it's chrome tanned leather which would not have had tannin applied during tanning.

In any case I think any corrosion would be caused by water condensing on metal kept in a cold place. The water would then soak into the leather.

 

[JonnyW]

No idea John. I know nowt about it. The moisture theory sounds more plausible as a cause for oxidisation than chemical reaction, but to tell you the truth, I have no idea.

I'm going to wax/oil the saw and rub oil into the sheath, and just see what happens.

Jonny

 

[dickm]

Hello,

Tannin and tanning are not the same thing. In fact leather used to be tanned with dog poo in Victorian Britain. :|

Sounds like you'd better update Wikipedia:-
"Traditionally, tanning used tannin, an acidic chemical compound from which the tanning process draws its name (tannin is in turn named after an old German word for oak or fir trees, from which the compound was derived)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning

 

[JohnPW]

I've seen rusty drill bits which were kept in a canvas roll, so I think tools going rusty in a leather tool roll is caused by moisture from being store in a cold place. Water condenses onto the tool and gets trapped by the tool roll, whereas without the tool roll the water has a chance to evaporate.

Even if you use veg tanned leather, the tannin used in the tanning might get converted to something else and is not tannin anymore.

 

[JonnyW]

Thanks for the replies. Appreciated.

Jonny

 

[dickm]

I've seen rusty drill bits which were kept in a canvas roll, so I think tools going rusty in a leather tool roll is caused by moisture from being store in a cold place. Water condenses onto the tool and gets trapped by the tool roll, whereas without the tool roll the water has a chance to evaporate.

Even if you use veg tanned leather, the tannin used in the tanning might get converted to something else and is not tannin anymore.

Thinking about this, it's probably moisture first and foremost that causes the problems. BUT, if the leather isn't properly washed after the initial soaking in the tannin solution (irrespective of the source of the tannin) some residual uncombined tannin may still be present in the material. Get this damp in the presence of ferrous metal, and it will increase the resulting corrosion.
So the moral is that however you store your precious tools, keep them dry! And if you do want to use a leather holder for physical protection, make sure it's good quality leather that doesn't contain residues.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I have a _really_cheap_ leather chisel roll, which is fine.

Occasionally squirting a small amount of WD 40 down the pockets might be helping.

 

[tomasg]

Hello
For those who's interested in stitching some leather for your tools
Ive had mixed results and would like to share ...

Not having an adequate place to store tools ..this started me off
and ive been having to doing so since about 3 years ago
It seems multiple layers works best .
I used to regularly go to thrift shops and find jackets and belts n'stuff
If i had access to suede then and I know what i know now
i would get as much of it as i could for the task and sew it on to good leather .
Although I cant advise one on what good leather is ...
I do have some things to say ....

Dont bother with lesser leathers ..and beware alot of them are laminations
It's not worth getting these thin jackets which thread will cut through if tightly sewn !
These are usually the good deals because their a bit shook lookin
and you start to make excuses to bring it home for something ...

Next thing you know youve got a big heapfull of musky smelling jackets in a box
resembling some kind of cow or goat that's been left in the corner of the room to die
Anyway...

Ive made plane socks from old boots with no suede or other leather linings
and if you can see theirs some corrosion on the wing on the no.4 .
I soon realized too that i needed the suede for my low angle block aswell
Although it wont be as easy to put away now, it was really bad ,
It got doused in oil frequently, started with 3 in 1 and i probably used a small can of it on that 601/2 holster alone
that was only in storage And still the iron corroded ,
Not the bronze ,that's only recently blued ....probably from the gushings of extra virgin olive oil
that followed after the 3 in 1 . Maybe some containment in the oil ,
That leather plane wallet seemed to get worse with age like it was secreting internal salts out of itself .

Although this was a quality tough piece from a good jacket .
So you cant trust seemingly good leather alone ,
Try to source out suede for lining , Saying that, I do have some lesser strength black leather from jackets
that ive used with good results which were really soft for larger saws
these being used for multiple laminations so its got weight and flop factor as to not let air
Ive had really good results with these laminations
BTW theirs hardly any oil used on these non problematic suede or suedish toolrolls
A light amount of 3 in 1 the last time i remember about a year ago compared to like 6 months ago
with a total olive oil dousing on the low angle block .
Hopefully some info for someone in this
good luck
Tomas

 

[JonnyW]

Excellent post and nice work. Well done and thanks.

Jonny