Kitchen Lights

[woodshavings]

I installed halogen downlighters in the kitchen a few months ago. I used the Screwfix kits - 3 off 20 watt fittings plus electronic transformer for £10.

I have 14 lamps, split between the two original lighting circuits, a dual dimmer replacing the original switch. The dimmer works fine.

The lamp fittings fit a 68 mm hole. The transformers will also fit through this hole size. I could not get easy access to the floorboards above the kitchen ceiling so I cut slots across the floor joists from the ceiling side where the low voltage connecting cables needed to cross the joists, with a simple replastering job over these areas when finished.

In 3 months, I have had one bulb failure. The lamps "soft start" because of the dimmer and are usually run just below full power. I think this prolongs the bulb life. The 20 watt bulbs do not generate excessive heat - they sit in the "free air" in the ceiling space and show no signs of overheating.

HTH

John

 

[Anonymous]

Ooooh, this is too good to miss....

This extends to anyone working on the installation. If a fatality occurs due to poor workmanship or non-compliance with regs, for example, then the last qualified person to work on that equipment is responsible for the defect and will be prosectuted for
a) not spoting it
b) not fixing it

Does that mean that if in the meantime an UNqualified person worked on (it) then the qualified person would still be responsible?

The lawyers are going to have a field day....

 

[Anonymous]

And back to the thread....

Having burned out a lot of transformers in my day, I apply a simple rule to low-voltage lights on dimmers, which is that I use a transformer with at least a 50% margin of error. Note also that there really are two types of transformers, those that are dimmable and those that are not. Buy the right one for your application!

My kitchen runs plain old incandescent fittings, 600W of them on three units of four bulbs each. (It's a big kitchen). Problem is, dimmers at that size come expensive and they don't last 5 minutes.

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew

We should leave it here

Agreed.

Your instructor was ill informed. Although the 16th edition is not actually law, non-compliance with it is illegal should anything happen as a result of that non-compliance, ergo, it is law in all but name :wink:

I think you are agreeing with me actually - "it isn't law but in the event you implement something that doesn't comply...."

Let's give it a rest now - I suspect the other natives of this forum are getting restless and boiling a big VAT ready to chuck us in....

Andrew

 

[Anonymous]

Incidentally,I have been listening to various rants on the screwfix forum regarding part p.One of the sparks decided to test out how it would work.He rang his local building dept. and said he was the customer who had recently had work done by an unqualified electrician.They said fine we can send someone out to check the work and you pays us lots of money.when he asked if the inspector would be fully trained he was told that they used one of their building inspectors who had been on a three day course.I am now going to retire to my rubber room and put my new jacket on-the one with the long sleeves which fasten at the back.

 

[Anonymous]

when he asked if the inspector would be fully trained he was told that they used one of their building inspectors who had been on a three day course

Silly isn't it?

30 years experienced spark does a bit of wiring.
20 year old Uni grad with 3 days experience verifies it's okay.

"Sorry missus, can't issue the certificate 'cuz the spark don't know wot he's doin', see. I just got a belt off that 'ere light fitting when I took the cover off, that didn't 'appen on me course 'cuz we weren't allowed near electricity so there must be electricity goin' spare in 'ere sumwhere".

How stupid. The C&G2381 course for the wiring regs is a couple of days. The C&G2391 inspection and testing course which a spark has to have is 5 days. And the inspector who has to say everything is okay has no experience whatsoever and gets half the training.

Move over in that room mate. There'll be a few more along shortly.....

Andrew

 

[trevtheturner]

Beaurocracy gone mad isn't it :evil: .

Just bought 100m of twin & earth, red & black, in case I want to install more sockets/lighting in the workshop, or indoors, in the future. Mind you, it will be completed by 31.12.2004 - and who is going to prove otherwise :wink: . Also, I'd sooner have it inspected by the likes of you, Andrew, than some L/A chinless wonder!

Do hope you sort your lights okay, Noel.

Cheers,

Trev.

 

[Noel]

Thanks for all the posts about me kitchen. Will go for the transformer (oversized) type.

Noel

 

[Shady]

Noely, as a lot of the posts here suggest, I've found it impossible to beat screwfix for value for money on something like this..

 

[Martin]

when he asked if the inspector would be fully trained he was told that they used one of their building inspectors who had been on a three day course

Silly isn't it?

30 years experienced spark does a bit of wiring.
20 year old Uni grad with 3 days experience verifies it's okay.

"Sorry missus, can't issue the certificate 'cuz the spark don't know wot he's doin', see. I just got a belt off that 'ere light fitting when I took the cover off, that didn't 'appen on me course 'cuz we weren't allowed near electricity so there must be electricity goin' spare in 'ere sumwhere".

How stupid. The C&G2381 course for the wiring regs is a couple of days. The C&G2391 inspection and testing course which a spark has to have is 5 days. And the inspector who has to say everything is okay has no experience whatsoever and gets half the training.

Move over in that room mate. There'll be a few more along shortly.....

Andrew

I'm sorry, but all this belly-aching about the new part-P regs really does seem rather over the top. I think you're over-simplifying the issue - building inspectors are rarely 20yr old graduates who've had a 3 day training course. They're more likely to be 40+ qualified engineers who "know a thing or two". They're likely to be just as experienced as you were in the field of electrical installation prior to you taking your electrical regs exams.

If they make a mistake and fail to issue a certificate then the issue is easily solved - the sparky comes back and verifies the non-compliance - if there's a dispute, it's surely very easily solved....

I for one am in favour of tighter regulation, and with good reason. I've been looking to re-wiring my workshop and got my brother (who used to be a sparky) to take a look. It seems that the previous owner, in taking an electrical feed to the garage, has basically taken a spur off a 13A socket and used it to feed not only the sockets but also the 5A strip lights.

The long and short of it being that said strip lights could burn the garage down before the fuse box would stop them. I expect it's likely to be a DIY job, but for my money it's a good example of why new regulations like Part P are necessary...

 

[Anonymous]

The long and short of it being that said strip lights could burn the garage down before the fuse box would stop them. I expect it's likely to be a DIY job, but for my money it's a good example of why new regulations like Part P are necessary...

And how exactly do you imagine that Part P will stop this sort of thing happening?

Householder who feels the need to wire something up "ooh, better not, Part P will stop me!". Absolute rubbish. People will carry on regardless. And in my opinion the situation will worsen - not improve. People who would have been happy paying up to 50 quid to have some lights swapped over won't be so happy if the final bill is going to exceed £200 are they? Do you really think that will force them to keep their old light fittings? What will they do then? Simple - they will have a go themselves more often. What a brilliant result for a piece of legislation that was supposed to make things safer!

We live in an increasing nanny state. I have never objected to tightening up of rules on things like electricity, but to pretend that someone is going to stop being stupid because of some badly thought out legislation defies belief.

What is so wrong about this attempt at legislation is that a fully qualified and experienced spark will be unable to carry out electrical work despite his many years of experience. Are you claiming this is a good thing, that because he doesn't have the union card that he's not competent to do a good job? Of course not.

How's about government introduced new law that said you can't drive a car unless you belong to the AA or RAC? It's really no different to requiring a time-served spark having to join NICEIC.

And who is actually paying for this tripe? Government? Nope, they don't have any money to spend 'cos it's all ours anyway. Electricians? Haha! No chance. It's joe public who are footing the bill for this ridiculous legislation, and it's yet another stealth tax removing money from your wallet.

Remember that on top of the annual £350 fee to belong to NICEIC (£650 in the first year of applying), the electrician has to take a day out each year to escort the NICEIC inspector to review jobs that the spark recently completed - to make sure they are up to scratch. Good thing? Yeah, great. There are maybe 200 working days a year, so increase costs by 0.5% to cover this extra days loss each year. Add another half percent for joining NICEIC. So spark costs go up by 1% just to stay level. That's a cost that will be passed on to the consumer, and no doubt used as a convenient excuse to up costs even more.

Andrew

 

[Alf]

I think maybe the Part P discussion has been done to death now. Can we move on?

Cheers, Alf

 

[Martin]

I think maybe the Part P discussion has been done to death now. Can we move on?

Cheers, Alf

Agreed - sorry Alf. I'll keep it short.

Andrew - my main point is that regulations such as part P are needed (I agree that it's flawed in many areas, but then so is most legislation initially). It's always surprised me the amount of leeway afforded under the DIY banner. If my house burned down as a result of this botch job and I or my wife died as a result, who would be to blame? Surely people buying houses need better protection, and if you agree with that then it can only come through greater regulation (but I'm not necessarily saying Part P is the answer in this particular case).

Martin.

 

[Adam]

I think maybe the Part P discussion has been done to death now.

Yep. I think we must have just about exhausted it now? Surely?

Adam

 

[Taffy Turner]

Yes, but what implications will Part P have on the use of a dado cutter? :roll: :roll:

(That should stoke things up again!!!!!)

 

[Anonymous]

Taffy stop it

I have to second Alf,

With moderators hat on I am asking you all to let this one end here and now please

 

[Anonymous]

I hear ye, I hear ye. And I finished several days ago. Then someone crept in and rattled me cage guvn'r. Honest. Wife and two kids to support, please don't send me down..... ;D

Now about that last point.....

Andrew

 

[Newbie_Neil]

I hear ye, I hear ye.

Thanks
Neil

 

[Shady]

Will it stop me stealing all my electricity for free by hurling a weighted wire coat hanger on the end of some twinflex over the nearby high voltage pylon line??? :wink: