Kitchen Lights

[Les Mahon]

Hi noely,

Sunny, don't make me laugh! though at least the rain stayed away long enough this w/e for the foundations of my new workshop to get dug

I had forgotten when posting the previous post that I actually did a job for some part of the civil service in belfast - known as construction services, so I guess they do have there own building regs (Otherwise there was alot of people in a building not doing very much)...

 

[RogerS]

so in part P, does the P stand for Pathetic, Problematic or just Plain Pointless.

Reading a thread that I started on the Which forums the sane consensus is that we're all going to ignore it.

 

[Anonymous]

And it is apparently to save 2.6 lives a year in the UK, lives that are due to faulty wiring installations. Now call me a cynic, but when people find out how much it is going to cost to get the certification carried out they will probably say "sod that" and do the job themselves. End result, more darwin candidates.

Andrew

I do not agree with your sentiment at all and do not really see why you are so worked up about it.

I think that the reason behind part P is to catch and prosecute COWBOYS who go around pretending that they are qualified electricians and putting peoples lives at risk due to their incompetence, lack of training and ignorance of even basic electrical theory or IEE wiring regulations!!!

'you don't need a piece of paper to fit a socket.....blah...blah.. blah...'

I started out in my career as a time-served industrial electrician with a 232 craft certificate and am absolutely APPALLED at the things I have seen unskilled people do over the last 24 years.

To safely carry out electrical installations and thoroughly test them requires specialist knowledge (not just a bit of common sense)- usually gained by spending years working with a qualified electrician or electrical engineer on a recognised training course or apprenticeship with electrical theory taught too.

The only people who have need to worry about the part P regulation are those not qualified to do the job



2.6 people killed each year by poor electrical work is 2.6 too many.

 

[RogerS]

Actually the figure of 2.6 has, I think, been taken out of context. below is an extract from the findings

91. The RIA was criticised by 89% of those who gave an opinion on the document. The primary concern was the inclusion of accident figures from portable and non-portable appliances when Approved Document P is only applicable to fixed electrical installations. Table 1a in the RIA shows that 76% of fatal accidents and 74% of non-fatal accidents will not be directly affected by the introduction of the Part P proposals as they are not part of the fixed installation and hence outside the scope.

92. The public respondents focussed on the cost of the small number of accidents attributable to fixed installations (approximately 24% of fatalities and 26% of non-fatal accidents) and suggested that the savings in Table 2 in the RIA should exclude portable and non-portable appliances, making a saving of only £38m rather than £104m for an average of 2.6 deaths and 447 accidents per year. Whilst commenting on savings, some respondents queried the source of the 20% saving in accidents quoted in paragraph 33 of the RIA.

The inference is that the stats on which this has been based is flawed and there are actually NO accurate figures anywhere that show ANY deaths due to faulty wiring.

How many deaths from DIY? Falling off ladders etc? We've lost all sense of proportion in this country.

 

[Alf]

The inference is that the stats on which this has been based is flawed and there are actually NO accurate figures anywhere that show ANY deaths due to faulty wiring.

Not for nothing is there that famous aphorism; "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." :roll:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

I do not agree with your sentiment at all and do not really see why you are so worked up about it

Fact: Millions of UK taxpayers pounds have been spent setting up this scheme. Those same millions of pounds would have been better put buying cat scanners (etc) for hospitals where many more lives would be saved. I am fed up to the back teeth with government spending MY money on ill-thought out schemes.

Fact: The costs for the homeowner or rental property entrepreneur will be significantly increased as a result of Part P coming onto the statute books, with respect to work that needs to be carried out. The purchase (and sale) of any future home that YOU might seek to be involved in will be affected.

Fact: Homeowners and property developers faced with the exhorbitant cost of getting work carried out to comply with Part P might be inclined to do the work themselves "to save a few bob". More lives at risk, etc.

Fact: Cowboys will increase, not decrease, as a result of Part P. They will introduce themselves along the lines of "look mate, I can do that job for 50 quid cash so long as I don't have to mess around with that stupid Part P paperwork, alternatively I'll do the job for £250". Which option would you choose if it was your own personal money?

Fact: There is no evidence whatsoever that Part P will save a single life. The converse is true, as above - more people will be tempted to carry out unsafe enhancements to their electrical systems than before.

Fact: Instead of requiring honest tradesmen to join a quango (or trade union by the back door), wouldn't it have been far simpler to insist that any works carried out were done according to BS7671 - the 16th edition wiring regulations? Why does it need a quango to confirm that the electrician is okay to carry out electrical work? An electrician who has served his time and has all the relevant bits of paper simply doesn't need a quango to say he knows what he is doing.

Fact: Do the quango take responsibility if their member screws up and causes injury or loss of life? (The answer is no).

Fact: How would you feel if you had a major operation in a hospital, like a stomach tumour removed, and shortly afterwards a quango insisted that you go back in so that the quango inspector can check the surgeon did his job properly? Or you have your car MOT'd, and a month later you've got to take a day off work so that an independent assessor can check the MOT was done properly?

As I have said so many times, I applaud any measures which improve safety. What I don't approve of is busy-body policitians who prance about introducing new laws believing that they are doing a public service, when the opposite is so true.

Andrew

 

[Anonymous]

Fact: Millions of UK taxpayers pounds have been spent setting up this scheme. Those same millions of pounds would have been better put buying cat scanners (etc) for hospitals where many more lives would be saved.

Now we are back to the 'don't send probes to Titan as the money could be spent elsewhere' argument. Money must be spent on many things, not all diverted to one.

Fact: Homeowners and property developers faced with the exhorbitant cost of getting work carried out to comply with Part P might be inclined to do the work themselves "to save a few bob". More lives at risk, etc.

Not at the risk of prosecution - they will be found out if they intend to move house.

Fact: Cowboys will increase, not decrease, as a result of Part P.

I agree, more cowboys will appear - in prison!

Fact: There is no evidence whatsoever that Part P will save a single life. The converse is true, as above - more people will be tempted to carry out unsafe enhancements to their electrical systems than before.

Electricity IS DANGEROUS and all installation and repair work needs regulating

Fact: Instead of requiring honest tradesmen to join a quango (or trade union by the back door), wouldn't it have been far simpler to insist that any works carried out were done according to BS7671 - the 16th edition wiring regulations?

Now this I don't believe!!!!!!! It is already a requirement that work complies with 16th edition - failure to do so will lead to prosecution should anybody be injured or placed in danger.

As I have said so many times, I applaud any measures which improve safety. What I don't approve of is busy-body policitians who prance about introducing new laws believing that they are doing a public service, when the opposite is so true.

I applaud the measures too. These measures, although not ideal, will be an improvement

 

[Shady]

Got to disagree with you on this one, Tony - from 2 angles:

a) I strongly suspect that Andrew is correct - over-zealous intrusion in an essentially 'un-enforcable' aspect of any nationwide issue is a recipe for cowboy/shady dealing. Your implication that 'they will be caught when they sell the house' is a typical example of the busybody mentality: if this legislation is really about saving lives, it would be far more relevant to educate all the older couples who never intend to move - so will never 'be caught', but are precisely the poor sprouts who will now be priced out of employing a tradesman, and will therefore 'bodge' the job as the only way of doing it... Just like the gun laws post Dunblane, I guarantee you that there will be no appreciable reduction in electricity related deaths as a result of this, and quite possibly an increase. In addition, most of us - and I include myself - will probably say, 'stuff that, I'll take a chance on what's gonna happen in 3, 5, or 10 years time when I sell, have the lights/sockets I want now, and bluff the issue - go on mister government fool - prove I did it'....

b) My home is my castle - call me old fashioned, but if I want to build an unsafe shambles that will kill me, then it's my problem and caveat emptor when I come to sell... I am quite happy that contractors should be regulated - if I pay a tradesman, he should be able to meet appropriate standards. If, however, I myself wish to put a stupid stairwell in, or have live wires in the bathroom, then quite frankly, the state can keep its damned nose out. If, in due course, a buyer is stupid enough to buy such a house without a good structural survey, then he can inherit the issues with my best wishes. (I should add that I don't condone any such thing, but the point stands) - behind my front doors, the over-intrusive, profligate, nannying swine who can't even let me change a window or re-wire a plug without sticking their noses in can sod off. Again, Andrew's point is relevant. The money spent regulating this piece of stupidity could do a lot of genuine good where it's needed.

It is simply absurd to tell me whether a plug is correct or not at pain of law, just as the ludicrous new regs on windows are driven in part by a craven, vote driven refusal to acknowledge the need for nuclear power as the only logical answer to global warming.

Sorry, this is a rant, and I doubt you really mean what your answer implies - but as the most over-regulated, un-free nation in any notional 'democracy', we are becoming incapable of saying 'enough' to our 'elected servants'....

 

[Anonymous]

I have deleted my post

It was originally meant to be tongue-in-cheek but clearly did not come across as such - I'm very tired

 

[Shady]

(I should add that I don't condone any such thing, but the point stands)

Don't cherry pick to suit your argument when I make it quite clear that I would not seek to achieve such a stupid state of affairs.. That point was about the individual freedom we should be allowed within our own domain.

You are presumably a keen woodworker, as you moderate and read here. There are far more DIY/woodworking related accidents than 'pure' electircal each year. Accordingly, your logic implies that all DIY and all amateur woodworking should be banned, because that would save a number of people from death or mutilation each year. Would you actually support that?

I have no further to say either, as I enjoy this board, but would close with the line 'moderation in all things' - whether enjoying a hobby or passing legislation.

 

[Noel]

Any chance of having me thread back?


Noel

 

[Anonymous]

sorry

 

[Anonymous]

Not at the risk of prosecution - they will be found out if they intend to move house

How does that work then? There will be some magical new regulation requiring that an electrical inspection of a home involves lifting every floorboard and accessing every nook and cranny where cables might be run? A full 16th edition test costing hundreds of pounds to go with the new sellers pack? How's about those older properties built before 16th edition that don't comply with the regs then? Full rewire jobbie?

Now this I don't believe!!!!!!! It is already a requirement that work complies with 16th edition

Sorry, but you are just plain wrong on this score. I did my C&G2381 certification course two years ago and one of the things that was drilled into us by the instructor was that 16th edition was and still is advisory, not compulsory. There is no legal requirement whatsoever that an electrician (cowboy or otherwise) applies the regs to electrical work that they carry out. They'd be silly if they didn't take account of it, but if they thought wiring a cooker circuit with 1.0mm was okay..... (I am kidding with that latter point, honest - please no-one assume that's okay! ).

It is of course factual that if a fatality were to occur then the learned prosecutor would be thumbing thru his C&G2381 binder as he asks you pointed questions during your stint in the witness box. But failure to comply with the contents of the binder is not actually illegal, never has been. If you, as a super-dooper trained spark with all the qualifications under the sun, made an informed decision based upon your wide personal experience which were in contravention of the regs then you would be on safe ground (pun not intended).

Incidentally, and purely for the record, prior to attending the C&G2381 course I had visions of taking on any electrical work going. Had been doing so for over 30 years and thus far no-one had been fried. What C&G2381 taught me above all else was that I was going to leave any serious electrickery to time served sparks. Since the day I got my C&G2381 certificate I have very deliberately turned away any electrical work which was not simple in nature - change a socket for a new one, install a loft light, that sort of thing is fine. Full electric rewire, no. I don't change consumer units. Anything involving running new cabling I would be particularly choosey about. Not because I don't think I can do a good job - but because I know enough about my limitations to know that I'm not qualified to go tinkering in those areas.

Why did I take that decision? Well a couple of things got home to me during the course. The first was earthing regulations, I really hadn't realised there were several different ways to provide a CPC to a home (TN-C, TT, etc). And then diversity - you mean I can safely wire up a cooker with 2.5mm and not 4mm or 6mm? And you can do it in a domestic premises (maybe!), but not in the same house with the same cooker used as a boarding property? As you can imagine, if I'm that flimsy on the regs then I really shouldn't be in there doing that stuff - so I don't. I am very, very glad I did my C&G2381 because it kept me well out of cowboy country (anyone need a stetson? ).

Qualifications wise I'm fine. Experience wise, well I haven't done the apprenticeship bit and would be completely wrong to suggest that I'm the big hitter in the sparky industry.

I applaud the measures too. These measures, although not ideal, will be an improvement

The world waits with baited breath on that score.

What Part P does is similar to requiring you to prove to an independent inspector that you know how to fill your car with fuel. And the inspector will make annual visits each year to ensure that you do know how to fill the car with fuel. Sad fact is that if they were really serious about electrical work then they'd have brought in arrangements similar to Australia and other countries - where the DIYer is simply not allowed to do anything - must be done by a fully qualified spark every time. Now, whilst that might have ruled me out changing the odd light fitting (hence cramping my ability to earn a living), I would have been fully supportive of that.

I could actually become Part P qualified if I had a mind to be. But finding £1000 a year to be part of the quango jet-set isn't on the horizon, and never will be.

Andrew

 

[Anonymous]

Any chance of having me thread back?

Yes, of course old chap. Now that the red rags have stopped fluttering and there are some interesting bovine creatures with dangly bits on the horizon.....

Andrew

 

[Shady]

Sorry to all, lost it there after a **** week.

Noely:

1) I love them - good light, stylistically neutral but compatible with any decor...

2) Frankly, I've noticed no significant diff between these, normal, and 'long life' bulbs in day to day use.

3) Check the manufacturers' instrs re matching transformers/bulb ratings and dimmers - some cheaper dimmers won't work with low voltage sets.

4) I always use low voltage, with transformers. They do get hot - make sure insulation is 'cut back' around them. (I work on at least a foot clearance)

5) Fitting (mechanically) is easy: bore a hole with a drill, enlarge as necessary, and most have a spring loaded 'push-fit' system to lock the housing in. (In modern plasterboard ceilings, I've actually done the entire fitting with a single 'leatherman tool' before now in extremis) I've never had one 'fall out'. If you're unsure, do get a leccy friend to show you how to wire them up: despite my issue with Tony's view on legislation, I completely share his view on safety: it ain't worth dieing for the sake of 50 quid (or punts....)

HTH: in my view, they're a cost effective and relatively easy to configure lighting source, that will not clash horribly with decor from a victorian/shaker kitchen to a post modernist brushed steel minimalist temple...

 

[RogerS]

Are halogen lights 'dimmable'? I seem to remember being instructed that they weren't as they needed to operate at maximum temperature for the 'halogen cycle' to work otherwise they failed pronto.

Mind you..that was a log,long time ago and so I could be OOD

Roger

 

[Noel]

Thankyou Shady, a concise and informative reply. I'll have a go.

Noel

 

[mudman]

Are halogen lights 'dimmable'? I seem to remember being instructed that they weren't as they needed to operate at maximum temperature for the 'halogen cycle' to work otherwise they failed pronto.

Mind you..that was a log,long time ago and so I could be OOD

Roger

Haven't read any of this thread but was in B&Q in Merthyr today and whilst looking for a 12V 5W halogen for my daughter's 'piggy light' noticed a chunky looking one that professed to be 'dimmable'. Noted it as unusual and then noticed this post. Small worl hey?

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew

We should leave it here

However

drilled into us by the instructor was that 16th edition was and still is advisory, not compulsory.

Your instructor was ill informed. Although the 16th edition is not actually law, non-compliance with it is illegal should anything happen as a result of that non-compliance, ergo, it is law in all but name :wink:

This extends to anyone working on the installation. If a fatality occurs due to poor workmanship or non-compliance with regs, for example, then the last qualified person to work on that equipment is responsible for the defect and will be prosectuted for
a) not spoting it
b) not fixing it

I have been an electrical engineer for over 20 years and this has been the case all through that time

 

[Shady]

Tony, hope you got my PM - seemed to take forever to go.

Rgds,

Shady