Jones and Shipman 540P Rebuild (Round 2)

[deema]

I thought I’d share my adventures with a new to me surface grinder. I’ve done a lot of woodworking machine restorations, and only dabbled a bit with metal working machines, so this is a first! Now, I know less than would fit in the back of a postage stamp about grinding, but I do have jobs that would be far better / easier with a surface grinder.

this is what it looked like in one piece!

 

[deema]

So the tear down begins. The table is only connected by the hydraulic piston arms, one either side. There are 4 bolts holding it on. You can’t lift the machine using the table or the piston arms will bend and need replacing. The piston is the bit with bits of tissue stuffed in the hydraulic ports. You can see at either end the two blocks that hold the table to to the rest of the machine.

 

[deema]

I don’t have a manual for this machine, if anyone has one and could send me a copy that would be really appreciated.
The hydraulic ram came off next. A few bolts and then it’s just a case of easing it iff the pins carefully.

The table is extremely heavy, two man lift or preferably some form of lifting device. Anyway, with that off you arrive at what I’m going to call the cross slide carriage.

 

[deema]

I’m posting photos which I took, so the photos may show the machine with parts removed that I haven’t yet described. I hadn’t considered doing a thread when I was pulling it apart. They may appear more than once!

I bought the machine described as being well maintained! Well, when I started to look at it and take it apart, that clearly as a stretch. The spindle has no discernible end end play. (You place a clock on the nose of the spindle and push the spindle in and note the deflection) there was none to speak off, well, about 1 micron; so good enough. The taper on the spindle was in good condition, and run out was again negligible, possibly 1 micron. (Clock on the side of the spindle and the spindle turned)

The cross slide is…….well………fluggered! The scale is in hundreds of a thou (microns there abouts) and there is just a bit of backlash, well around 3mm! The screw is a 5 TPI acme…..so almost completely worn through.

The hydraulic fluid looks like lapping paste, and the stuff on the ways was thick black with grinding dust. There are still witness marks of the scrapping evident on almost the entire length of the ways, which suggests that the state of the machine is something that’s happened recently.

 

[TFrench]

Watching with much interest! One of these is definitely on my list in the future if I can figure out how to fit it in the workshop. There's some very useful stuff on practical machinist about them - I'm sure someone on there will have the manual. I think a company called andmar are the people to go to for spares on these.

 

[Fergie 307]

You really don't want to plug hydraulics with tissue. You would be surprised how much of a nuisance a bit of fluff can cause. One easy way of doing it is to cut the finger off a plastic glove, stuff that with tissue and use it in the hole.

 

[deema]

You really don't want to plug hydraulics with tissue. You would be surprised how much of a nuisance a bit of fluff can cause. One easy way of doing it is to cut the finger off a plastic glove, stuff that with tissue and use it in the hole.

Thanks Fergie, that’s appreciate, hadn’t thought about that, I will use your trick going forward.

 

[NetBlindPaul]

You really don't want to plug hydraulics with tissue. You would be surprised how much of a nuisance a bit of fluff can cause. One easy way of doing it is to cut the finger off a plastic glove, stuff that with tissue and use it in the hole.

Plugging ports with tissue would have resulted in disciplinary action when I worked for a global hydraulics OEM, unless the device was being dismantled for repair, and the tissue was only being used to stop oil from dribbling out before cleaning and dismantling.

 

[Fergie 307]

Plugging ports with tissue would have resulted in disciplinary action when I worked for a global hydraulics OEM, unless the device was being dismantled for repair, and the tissue was only being used to stop oil from dribbling out before cleaning and dismantling.

Same here when I used to work on hydraulic pumps for tractors and such. Now I have a jar full of assorted plastic blanking plugs taken from various new or refurbished brake and hydraulic cylinders over the years.

 

[Dalboy]

When I finished work I cleared out my toolbox to find loads of the plastic plugs which I used to cover the ends of connectors if I had to go and get a replacement hose made especially if it burst on a very muddy site

 

[deema]

It’s been a while since I did an update, cleaning the machine is tedious and not very inspiring!

Let’s start with the sump, or hydraulic tank that’s located inside the bottom of the machine. Getting the tank out of the machine full of hydraulic fluid is “fun”. It must weigh over 50Kg when full! You have to remove the two hydraulic hoses and disconnect the wiring to the motor before it will squeeze through the door. To get at the hydraulic hoses you need to remove the front switch panel. I’d recommend draining as much of the fluid as possible before attempting this. The pump itself can be used to pump it out…..but it’s at a pressure so not feeling that brave I used a manual pump.

A few pictures of the gubbins after I’d initially cleaned them…..well wiped off the majority of the thick goo so you can actually hopefully recognise a few of the parts. It’s a simple system, a 4 pole motor drives through a chain and sprocket a pump to provide hydraulic pressure for the system. The manual says the oil should be changed annually, but I think this has been in the tank for the full 50 years of its life! I know that I used just paper towel to block the ports but the photos were before the brilliant advise already provided. In later photos I’ve headed the recommendatio.

So first order of the day was to disassemble and start cleaning!

The tank looks a bit better after a spring clean.

The oil sits in the tank and the actual pump system sits on a platform connected through anti vibration pads that connect to the three tabs around the tank.

The platform is a casting, machined and ribbed for additional strength. It’s a substantial piece, not just a thin metal fabrication we would find today. The slots on the left are T slots that are used to connect and slide the motor to tension the chain.

The sprockets and chain were worn out. The tips of the teeth on the sprockets were sharp enough to cut any unwary fingers venturing close. I’ve popped the dimensions of the two sprockets on the old units and shown them against the new ones Ive replaced them with. The new sprockets have tapered locking bushes to fit the spindles. I used Reynolds simplex roller chain 3/8” pitch and appropriate sprockets.

I took the motor apart and replaced the bearings. Might as well as they are cheap and it helped cleaning up the motor. These were replaced with SKF sealed for life bearings.

The sprockets are shown as I originally put them on, however, they foul the shroud this way around, and I subsequently reversed them. Made fitting them a little tricky to tighten up the grub screws, but there is enough room for a standard Allen key.
I didn’t take apart the pump, it has a few gaskets and seals inside it which I can’t find spares for. Ideally I would want to do this as I’m sure it’s full of crud. If anyone has taken this apart and knows where to get seals from please give me a shout out. I could use gasket compound ratter than gaskets. At the moment the plan is to flush it through with fresh hydraulic fluid.

I checked the dynamic balance of the new sprockets, and found that they were very good. Only a little adjustment being required to achieve almost imperceptible vibration.

 

[deema]

The platform is mounted to the tank on Metalastik anti vibration feet. You can buy the ‘original’ parts from either Precision Machinery (£47 / each) or Andmar (£12 each) the prices are correct as of May 2021 and didn’t include VAT or delivery ouch…….so I bought male bobbin anti vibration units from WDS components for a lot less! with M8 threaded ends and a load carrying capacity of 18.8kg, the platform assembly weighs 27KG so dividing it my 3 gives circa 10KG Per foot. Usually, I understand you add 60% for extreme conditions and these were the closet I could find. The alternative was feet with exactly 10KG maximum load and I was sure the motor would cause the load to be biased towards the foot closest to it.

With the feet I could now mount the platform to the tank and pop the shroud over the gubbins.

The chain is tightened to allow a maximum of 5mm movement on the middle between the two sprockets (according to the manual). The sprockets must be aligned or the chain will wear very quickly. Achieving this is difficult!! There is a lot of play in the T nuts and getting the chain tight and aligned is frustrating and time consuming……or it was for me!

I have copies of the manuals for all three variants of the machine, and I’m using specifications from all three as the level of detail in each is different. However, it’s clear that very little changed between each iteration of the machine which is a very good sign that they got it right the first time. The tank arrangement wasn’t changed and the hydraulic oil specification remained the same.

The shroud just sits on the tank and isn’t touching it connected to the platform. It’s important to ensure the the oiler pipe is positioned over the chain to lubricate it. It comes from a feed off the pump. The small basket is where the hydraulic fluid returns to before dripping into the tank.

The tank hold approximately 18 litres and requires Vacuoline 1405 which can be bought from Westway lubricants in a 20 litre drum Which is handy.

The shroud has a handy spy hole that allows you to see that the chain lubricator is working. There is a small adjuster on the pump to alter the flow as needed. The pump should be set to 6.8 bar pressure with a maximum pressure of 8.3bar. I haven’t tested this…..yet! Advise on a setup to text the pressure would be appreciate, I’m no hydraulic expert.

The assembled tank is very very heavy and that’s without 18 litres of hydraulic fluid sloshing around inside it. I can perhaps understand why draining this is a chore and not often done.

 

[deema]

So, after posting the details of the tank, it’s got me thinking. Perhaps I really should take apart the pump? Here is a schematic of what I will find inside. Now, as I’ve previously said, hydraulics are something relatively new to me, and I don’t know a lot about them. I haven’t so far had a need to poke my fingers into hydraulics, but I’m very very aware how dangerous a squirt of it can be if you get it wrong! So, I’m very cautious about playing with this stuff, I don’t want to have bits of me cut off due to having it inadvertently injected into me!!

E
So, here are my thoughts, hopefully any hydraulic experts can correct my perceptions.
There appears to be just three sealing parts, two copper gaskets and a stuffing ring. I think I can reuse everything? I dont think I will need to replace the copper gaskets as long as I carefully mark which side , way around they are and pop them back in the same way? Not sure what the stuffing ring is made from but hopefully that is just some form of fibre rope?.

There are two pipes up to the machine from the pump. It looks like there are two pressure pipes into the machine, from reading other posts I think the centre one is the high pressure port and the one above the Exhaust pipe (S) is a low pressure outlet. So firstly, any experts, does this sound about right? Can you see any issues in taking this apart and rebuilding it? Anything I should be careful about / pointers for reassembly?

 

[Cabinetman]

I’m sorry I can’t advise, just watch in wonderment. Can’t wait to see when you move onto the top half of the machine. Ian

 

[TFrench]

I'm certainly no expert but here's my thoughts - if these gaskets aren't available from the specialists, I'd say they're probably fine to reuse. Thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of these machines were made over the years and if they were a common service item, they'd be available. Possibly worth annealing them when they're out to soften them up?

 

[deema]

Thanks TFrench for you perspective, still wondering what to do and hoping for a few more comments.

 

[deema]

So, while I’m pondering what to do with the hydraulic pump, I though I’d add a bit more on what I’ve been doing.

The next bit up is the cross slide carriage system. This is the most complex bit of the table arrangement, but built extremely well and very robustly. Initially let’s look at the automatic cross slide movement system. A schematic of what this consists of is below.

Although it looks complex, it’s not difficult to take apart and reassemble.

This is the unit after it was cleaned, oiled and reassembled. I will be using pictures of cleaned and as was pictures mixed up, depending on what I had taken. Apologies.
The unit comes apart firstly into two main pieces with a gentle pull, which disengages the locking system from an internal ring. The star knob on the front has first to be removed.

Front face with the Star knob removed.

Back of the unit.

the unit pulled apart into two pieces

You can see the two faces that are joined together. The lower of the two pieces (top item in the photo) contains the pawls that allow the cross slide of the unit either towards the user or away from them.
The top piece (lower item in photo) has the geared ring that the micro adjust worm engages with. This is 80 teeth for the imperial machine like mine and 100 for the metric version. The spigot sticking out is what engages with the pawls to engage either move in / out or disengage them completely.

The front comes away from the worm drive ring, again a gentle pull.

 

[deema]

A photo of the worm gear removed. The Star knob pulls the spigot you can see against the back of a recess in the worm gear and locks the assembly to allow the micro adjust to actuate movement in the table. If it’s not locked the micro adjust just spins, and this is how it should be left most of the time. The spigot thread on mins is just about worn out, and at some point I will make a new one; but that’s for another day!

The next part is to remove the circlip and washer to break the last pieces apart.

The pawls are held I’m by two pins that simply push out, they are not a press fit. The two pawls are identical and have a small spring held within a pocket. No real energy to worry about when taking apart. The brass lever that determines the amount of movement the carriage makes at the end if each table stroke is also held by a pin that just pushes out.

You can see the bottom of the pawl pins in the next photo.

The lever that activates the automatic movement and actuates the pawls has indents for a ball bearing to snap into to give a positive location when selecting the three positions. Mine didn’t have any ‘snap’ action. The lever is held onto the actuator by a tapered pin. The lever has a recess for the spring and ball bearing. When I took mine apart I found the ball bearing had worn such that half of it was missing. It was a half moon shape. I bought a pack of 5mm ball bearings to replace it.

Although I noted the orientation of the actuator, the tapered pin would only go back in when it was orientated correctly.

A light oil if you all the parts and reassemble was simply the reverse. The only ‘tricky’ bit is getting the lever to re-engage with the pawls. I found by just gently turning the lever back and forth it would work it way back into place and allow the parts to reassemble without any issues .

 

[deema]

Next part to undergo decontamination was the fine adjust for the cross slide. The schematic for the assembly is shown below. The previous Posts Ive worked on item A / J. This will be looking at item E. a more detailed schematic of the system is shown in the lower diagram.

In order to remove the ratchet system A, you need to remove the fine or micro adjust. A grub screw (D) is removed and the dial can then be pulled off. Next are six bolts folding the two boss ends into place (C). Once these are removed a genital tapping on the end of the shaft where the dial has been removed will push out the system. The star knob needs to be loose on the ratchet mechanism. I used a puch to push out the top boss.

The worm has two thrust races, one that sits under the knob and the other a I’ve the worm gear……not as shown in the layout, but the assembly is shown correctly in the last picture where I’v temporarily put it back together again.

 

[deema]

The last handle is the manual table traverse. Again starting from the schematic

The handwheel is held into the cross slide by a grub screw that can be seen in the photo below. Once released, the mechanism just pulls out.

Taking apart the handle starts with a nut in the centre of the had wheel (M) , which allows the front end to be pulled off. Three screws (O) around the collar of the handwheel allow the shield to be removed.
Taking out the bolt (G) gives access to the spring and ball bearing) once these have been removed the shaft (A) can be pulled out.

The tubular guard is some kind of material, not sure what, but as far as I can discern it’s just to stop rubbish ingress into this region.
There is a single oil seal at the handle end which I couldn’t work out why there wasn’t one at the other end initially. Looking at how it works, hydraulic oil drips into the central table space and a groove channels some of it to enter the open end. The shaft has a groove running all the way down it to allow the hydraulic oil to lubricate the mechanism. It’s clear that levelling this machine will be vital to ensure that the hydraulic oil runs properly to lubricate everything correctly.