Jointer plane LN 7 v 7 1/2

[AJB Temple]

I have decided to buy a new jointer plane. I recently bought an eBay Stanley 7 for very little (£25 plus postage), polished the sole and handles and sharpened and polished the blades so that it worked quite well....and then in a rash moment gave it to my brother in exchange for a promised but yet to be delivered Kango.

However, I would still like a jointer plane and having recently acquired two used LN smaller planes that are really pretty good, I am considering their jointer along with Quangsheng (£200 ish), Veritas (more and a weird shape), Clifton (eye waveringly more - think almost double). Brand is not crucial. Good quality is. I am not interested in spending hours and hours flattening a 22" long cast iron sole.

The specific question is: what is the practical difference in use between a Lie Nielson 7 (£270 ish) and the cheaper (£230 ish) low angle 7 1/2?

What I would use it for: Truing up Iroko or similar boards to make some of my my work surfaces out of hardwood in a new kitchen and utility room. Fine edging boards to make a Japanese soaking bath (never made one before so this will be interesting for me). Admiring on the plane shelf

Feel free to recommend anything. I am easily influenced

Adrian

PS, I do have a PT that is OK (Axi) and a horrendous electric portable planer, but I quite like had tools.

 

[undergroundhunter]

I went with a wooden plane made by nurse. Best thing I ever did, my iron planes now see very little/no use.

Matt

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The longer metal-bodied planes can be heavy. Not such a problem for less intensive use, but one up to the older thinner-casting types and the woodies when used for any length of time.

As for comparison between bevel-down with a cap-iron or bevel-up, that's really just about personal preference. Build quality of both will be more than adequate.

'Course you could always go for one of each, just in case.....

 

[D_W]

I have decided to buy a new jointer plane. I recently bought an eBay Stanley 7 for very little (£25 plus postage), polished the sole and handles and sharpened and polished the blades so that it worked quite well....and then in a rash moment gave it to my brother in exchange for a promised but yet to be delivered Kango.

However, I would still like a jointer plane and having recently acquired two used LN smaller planes that are really pretty good, I am considering their jointer along with Quangsheng (£200 ish), Veritas (more and a weird shape), Clifton (eye waveringly more - think almost double). Brand is not crucial. Good quality is. I am not interested in spending hours and hours flattening a 22" long cast iron sole.

The specific question is: what is the practical difference in use between a Lie Nielson 7 (£270 ish) and the cheaper (£230 ish) low angle 7 1/2?

What I would use it for: Truing up Iroko or similar boards to make some of my my work surfaces out of hardwood in a new kitchen and utility room. Fine edging boards to make a Japanese soaking bath (never made one before so this will be interesting for me). Admiring on the plane shelf

Feel free to recommend anything. I am easily influenced

Adrian

PS, I do have a PT that is OK (Axi) and a horrendous electric portable planer, but I quite like had tools.

If you are going to do heavy dimensioning with it, I'd stick with the bevel down format with a cap iron.

Bummer that you sold your stanley, as they make a bit of a nicer plane in heavy work - slower to lose wax on the sole usually and a pound or so lighter.

 

[D_W]

I went with a wooden plane made by nurse. Best thing I ever did, my iron planes now see very little/no use.

Matt

What a breath of fresh air!!

I wish there was more nurse stuff on the ground on this side of the ocean.

 

[AJB Temple]

Oddly enough I have been thinking about Japanese wooden planes or Taiwanese copies. I do have a number of old ex schoolroom wooden planes, but I simply hate them in use. They are light but (in my hands) lack precision. The blades are not fantastic to sharpen and I can't see the sense in investing a lot in fettling them with new blades I do realise that the wood is a shock absorber. I know, must try harder.

I will not do heavy dimensioning: machine first then final tweaks by hand.

Weight of tool is not an issue: I am tall and my dad gave me some muscles.

 

[D_W]

You can pretty much buy and use anything if you're doing machine work first. Weight's an issue if you dimension (no matter how strong or tall), but not much of one if you don't (no matter how strong or tall).

it's hard to know what you'll like (bevel up or down) until you actually try one. The bevel up planes feel more flat footed, and the bevel down planes feel more vertical. I've personally always liked planes that feel upright for edge jointing.

If you don't love the wooden planes, you don't love them, that's pretty much the end of the story. I never got a good grasp on really getting a wood plane to perform well until I started making them, and that's not practical. Perform well meaning that they don't just work, but they are locked up like a vault, quiet in use and don't choke on shavings.

 

[undergroundhunter]

I went with a wooden plane made by nurse. Best thing I ever did, my iron planes now see very little/no use.

Matt

What a breath of fresh air!!

I wish there was more nurse stuff on the ground on this side of the ocean.

I bought it on ebay with a rubbish description (http://goo.gl/vjljCn), I just love it. The iron takes a wicked edge, only problem is a couple of cracks in the body, I did glue and clamp them (sing hide glue) but they have reopened, no matter they seem stable enough.

If you are using machines to do the dimensioning why do you need such a big plane for cleaning up?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"The longer metal-bodied planes can be heavy. Not such a problem for less intensive use, but one up to the older thinner-casting types ... "
Out of curiosity I weighed a couple. A Marples No.7 was 1282grammes and an American Stanley No.8 that is probably 20 years older was 1300grammes. The Stanley is a much bigger plane - but obviously a much thinner casting.

 

[AJB Temple]

I don't "need" such a big plane. I just quite enjoy using them - it is very satisfying seeing translucent shavings appear quietly as I work. Apart from a kitchens etc most of my woodworking over the years has been making (and usually selling) stringed musical instruments. So although I have machinery now, I will still use hand tools and the plane is to complete a set really. It is a want much more than a need. I probably will replace the Stanley as well, but I would like to see what a modern quality tool can do. The LN broze plane I recently acquired (via m brother as it happens) is in a different league to my old (and somewhat abused) StanleyNo 4.

Unfortunately, I understand that my next project (apart from a front door) will be some large timber compost bins. Not much skill required. My wife saw these on the last Monty Don Gardeners World thing this week and announced that this is essential for her kitchen garden area.

 

[AJB Temple]

I have just selectively read the very long thread on how to store hand planes, which turns out to be a thread about chip breakers and Stanley v LN adjustment methods. Interesting and a trifle confusing. Clifton planes rarely get mentioned in threads here. Is there a reason?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Reading an active thread is a completely different experience to reading an old thread; it's like a conversation in a pub, to which you can contribute if you feel like, but an 'old' thread is like listening to a recording of a conversation. Some threads do wander off in rather arcane directions, sometimes.

You're right that Clifton planes don't really get the attention they should, though they do crop up quite a bit, especially just lately as the ownership of the brand changed hands.

I can assure you there is no reason to regard Clifton planes as anything other than very high quality, nicely made tools. They are every bit the equal of Lie-Nielsen and Veritas, and some say they have rather more 'soul'. From personal experience, I've had a Clifton 3-in-1 shoulder plane almost since they were first available, and I wouldn't part with it for a big gold clock. About the only really valid criticism I've heard of Clifton is that they're not really marketed very well in comparison to their North American competitors; no doubt in due course we'll see how the new owners (Thomas Flinn) manage that aspect of the business.

 

[D_W]

I went with a wooden plane made by nurse. Best thing I ever did, my iron planes now see very little/no use.

Matt

What a breath of fresh air!!

I wish there was more nurse stuff on the ground on this side of the ocean.

I bought it on ebay with a rubbish description (http://goo.gl/vjljCn), I just love it. The iron takes a wicked edge, only problem is a couple of cracks in the body, I did glue and clamp them (sing hide glue) but they have reopened, no matter they seem stable enough.

If you are using machines to do the dimensioning why do you need such a big plane for cleaning up?

You are lucky there to have crisp long planes coming up for auctions on a regular basis. This is more typical of what we see in the US:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Plane-Vintage ... SwmrlUtU9J

(and I am by no means suggesting anyone consider it, of course). $130 "on sale" for a plane that's relatively coarsely made and that has a crack forming in the abutment on the right (and behind the bed along the cheek).

I've lucked into a couple of crisp planes (when purchasing to find out what made a good double iron plane), but it took a long time to watch them. There are plenty of cheap planes over here, but some were literally made with mouths greater than a quarter inch, it must've been dog eat dog price-wise here.

 

[D_W]

Marketing is the reason you don't see much of them in the US. Only a couple of places sell them, and at least forum-based advice has had a couple of instances where one wasn't made right and the retailer and the manufacturer both failed to do anything for the buyer.

If clifton is continuing to make planes and they can put them on the ground for the same price as LN, they could probably sell some over here, though LN's got a stranglehold on the bedrock style plane market here. They built it by putting their planes out in the hands of a whole bunch of retailers (they later retracted that once they had market share, perhaps because there was too much demand for them and they weren't ready to meet it), and by fixing the problem for every buyer, even often times when the buyer caused the problem.

 

[AJB Temple]

Clifton planes seem to carry quite a large price premium here in the UK compared with the Veritas and LN alternatives, and prima facie it is hard to see why it is worth paying 25% more. I do have a Clifton 402 which is nice and works extremely well, but the finish is by no means perfect.

Irwin Record and Stanley seem to have lost the plot with modern stuff. eBay purchases are a lottery but cheap enough to have a punt. Prices seem to be creeping up.
I am somewhat intrigued by QuangSheng. The thing is to lay down nigh on £200, if I don't like it might be a risk to sell on.
Rider, sold by Axminster, are cheap and the ones I have seen in the shop (but not actually used) are pretty decent looking.
Maybe a plane is a place is a plane and it is the blade that matters and should just pick up another off eBay.

 

[mouppe]

For edge jointing I do like a 7, but for general flattening work I tend to use a jack plane or a 5 1/2. The bevel up plane will be lighter than the 7 I suppose if you intend to do a lot of flattening.

 

[AJB Temple]

Bought another Stanley 7 off eBay. Corrugated base. Looks to be in exceptional vintage condition with almost new blade length, but we shall see. The plan is to buy a modern one from some premium maker as well and do a comparison for interest. One or other will then be sold or swapped.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Clifton planes seem to carry quite a large price premium here in the UK compared with the Veritas and LN alternatives, and prima facie it is hard to see why it is worth paying 25% more. I do have a Clifton 402 which is nice and works extremely well, but the finish is by no means perfect.

Irwin Record and Stanley seem to have lost the plot with modern stuff. eBay purchases are a lottery but cheap enough to have a punt. Prices seem to be creeping up.
I am somewhat intrigued by QuangSheng. The thing is to lay down nigh on £200, if I don't like it might be a risk to sell on.
Rider, sold by Axminster, are cheap and the ones I have seen in the shop (but not actually used) are pretty decent looking.
Maybe a plane is a place is a plane and it is the blade that matters and should just pick up another off eBay.

The Clifton premium comment piqued my interest, so I looked up the relative prices on Classic Hand Tools website. The LN 7 1/2 (low angle jointer) is £269.82, the LN7 bedrock jointer is £327.64 and the Clifton 7 is £355, so there is indeed a premium for Clifton, but not a large one.

Your opinion of modern Record and Stanley matches one widely held by many on this forum. Some examples can be fair to decent, but it seems there are too many sub-standard examples floating around for those brands to be regarded as reliable. The budget brands such as Faithfull, Silverline, Anant and so on are probably best regarded as a cheap kit of parts from which a reasonable plane could be assembled given a modicum of fettling knowledge and a fair bit of work, and it seems the better end of the Chinese made planes (Quangsheng, Wood River, possibly Axminster Rider) are really getting it together, especially if sourced through one of the reputable importers.

No - a plane is not a plane is not a plane. There are still planes - and planes.

PS - If you do decide to invest in a new premium plane, an objective comparison with a vintage Stanley would make an interesting post in the fullness of time.

 

[AJB Temple]

Thanks CC. I have done a fair amount of plane spotting on the inter web and it is possible to find the LN offerings at prices well below that. I have this week been offered a LN 7 1/2 at a discounted price inclusive of VAT for £242 from a tool supplier I have used a couple of times of late for chisels etc. The Clifton 7 1/2, which I accept is not a direct comparison, is priced consistently at just over £100 more than this, or 41% more. LN No 7 was offered to me at £291 all in, so the Clifton is almost 22% more. I think this is a weak marketing position for Clifton to be in.

If we look at Rider, then at just under £110 it is priced very well (and includes a spare blade and a sock) and some limitations can perhaps be accepted. The QS is around £100 cheaper than the LN and has some quality aspects that allegedly outperform the LN (blade for example).

We span a range here from around £35 for a Faithful tool which most people regard as rubbish (I have never held one so I don't know) through eBay rough examples of vintage Stanley and Record at around £40, to much better examples at £60 ish, to silly money for buy it now at £120 ish. The new Stan / IRec price is on the middle of this. Then we get into the Chinese copies of LN (copied Stanley) at £100 to £200, then the LN / Veritas level. Then Clifton, then premium small volume makers.

And on screen they all look much of a muchness.

I will do a proper comparison in due course when I have time. And post it here. This will be from a purely amateur user perspective.

 

[iNewbie]

if you want the clifton #7 try these - add vat if need be:

http://www.intertoolsonline.co.uk/clift ... ry-jointer