Japanese Saws vs. Western Saws

[Mittlefehldt]

[quote
Was it this one?

That's the first one I bought, and it is indeed fragile. I think the steel is hardened beyond its capabilities, making the teeth brittle. For the record I have not broken teeth on the other dozuki I own or owned. I would suggest you try again with that Z Saw I mentioned, Langevin & Forest sells it, and other outlets I'm sure.

DC

No it was not, I do have that one though used it to frame a basement room worked okay in construction grade spruce, ie soft, but wobbled all over the place and I couldn't cut a straight line with that thing to save my life.

The one I am referring to was called Japanese Dovetail saw, and it now has a black handle rather than the light coloured wood one mine did. As I said earlier it was fine in white pine dovetails but as soon as it got to anything with some weight it started losing teeth, and I would be the first to admit that my technique or lack thereof may have been responsible.

However I have as a result of reading Adam Cherubini and others discovered that western saws do the job handily, if you sharpen them, which I do, again maybe not flawlessly but I notice an improvement before and after. So I will stick with my little Pax and my R. H. Smith or Shurley & Dietrich made in Canada saws.

I should add that the first saws I bought for woodworking were the LV Japanese saws and I can say I prefer the western ones I use. You cannot beat the price when you see them regularily for less than $20 Canadian, and they do the job handily.

 

[dchenard]

Again, I like the Dozuki, I just object to it's characterization of "blowing away" the others. And as I said, I use mine very regularly (though not often for dovetails, unless in very thin stock, then I love it much more then the LN)

OK, let's backtrack for a minute here. The "characterization" that irks you stems from my observations from that association meeting, where the LN and Paik (and the other saws) were used to do dovetail-type cuts.

So I did a "collaborative test" today. I asked a friend, who owns both the LN and the Paik saws to do a test for me. Ten cuts straight through in endgrain hard maple, 3/4" thick stock, and cuts 3/4" deep. I asked him to give me the average number of strokes (defined as a back and forth motion) required to do the cut.

He came back with these results: LN, 8, Paik, 7. He did the same test in cherry, with the same results.

Backgrounder: the latest FWW Tools and Shops issue has a review of Japanese dozuki saws, where the author (Charles Durfee) measured the number of strokes needed to do the same kind of cut as mentioned above. His results were quite a bit higher than what my friend got, which got me baffled. Fortunately, my friend also has the small rip dozuki from LV, and did the same test. The result was between 8 and 9 strokes. Not bad for a small inexpensive saw.

I own the same saw, and set up to repeat my friend's results in a piece of hard maple. At first I couldn't get close to his results. Two possibilities here, either he did put downwards pressure on the saw (maybe without noticing), or his maple sample is softer than mine. In any case, I started adding a bit of pressure on the saw, and reached the same results as he did.

Now "properly calibrated", I tested the other two saws in my possession. The Z Saw mentioned abundantly in this thread (and the Editor's choice in the FWW article) took an average of 18 strokes to do the test cut. The LV Rip Dozuki? 5! :shock:

Coming back to my friend, based on the results he reached, the Paik takes 40% more strokes than the LV saw, and the LN 60%. In my book I call that "blow away", if you don't agree, well, don't agree :roll:

I would not call this a "scientific experiment" in any way, but I did it honestly. To be fair, my friend mentioned that he used full strokes, the full length of the saw, and in order to keep comparability I did the same. In practice, I don't put weight on the saw when I cut, and I use less than full strokes in order not to have the saw "jump out" of the kerf. That translates into doubling the number of strokes for all three saws when used "my way".

I rest my case.

DC

Regarding tenons, I did cut a test tenon on a 4", 4/4 maple board, 1 1/4" deep, with the LV saw. Didn't go very well, in all fairness I don't think this saw was designed to cut cheeks this wide, although I won't rule out operator error in this case, I don't cut lots of tenons by hand.

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting thread.
Perhaps there is clue to the issue in that there is huge variety of JSs and also of opinions about JSs.
To me this means that it's an open issue and that so many options means that non of them are convincing.
Whereas with a western saw there is very strong agreement about what's best; the trio of tenon, panel and rip/cross-cut being capable of almost everything, and all the others being useful but increasingly marginal or specialised, depending on what you are actually doing.
Phew glad I've made my mind up :lol:
cheers
Jacob

 

[ByronBlack]

DC, is the metric of number of strokes to cut a joint really the right metric to use to measure the quality of the cut? IMO I don't think it does, it mearly suggests which saw cuts the most aggresively. It doesn't take into consideration the finish of the cut, the straightness of the cut, and ease of tracking a straight line.

The best way to measure the quality of a saw is with a combination of all the factors mentioned above. For example, it wouldn't bother me one bit if I have to use 5 strokes for a cut or 10 strokes, aslong as the cut was straight and true and with a nice finish.

 

[dchenard]

DC, is the metric of number of strokes to cut a joint really the right metric to use to measure the quality of the cut? IMO I don't think it does, it mearly suggests which saw cuts the most aggresively. It doesn't take into consideration the finish of the cut, the straightness of the cut, and ease of tracking a straight line.

The best way to measure the quality of a saw is with a combination of all the factors mentioned above. For example, it wouldn't bother me one bit if I have to use 5 strokes for a cut or 10 strokes, aslong as the cut was straight and true and with a nice finish.

Agree wholeheartedly. Since my last post (and this thread!) was getting long, I did not dwelve on these points, so I'll do it now.

If you remember, I mentioned a couple eons ago, when this thread started, that I used to have a LN DT saw. I sold it because I liked my dozuki much better. Here's a few reasons:

- speed, as mentioned before
- setting in: the dozuki sets itself in the wood right away, whereas with the LN you have to take weight off the saw otherwise it refuses to start the cut.
- quality/finish of cut: I seem to remember that the dozuki left a somewhat cleaner cut, but let's call it a tie, as it wasn't a factor with either saw.
- ease of tracking/straightness of cut: neither saw has a lot of set, so one has to nail the cut from the start. Whenever I had cuts go off track was usually my fault, and trying to correct them can't be done easily by steering the saw (in either case). The small amount of set I actually do prefer, as it forces me to be careful when starting a cut, eventually making me better (hopefully!) at sawing.

So, on my scale (subjective, before someone takes me to task :lol: ), in the aspects described here, the LN saw can't beat the dozuki.

One last point about the LN: the saw always gets quite warm after making a cut. Not to the point where the steel would lose its temper, but annoying nonetheless, to me it's a sign that the saw is struggling to do its job (insufficient set?). My rip dozuki on the other hand always stays cool. Little intangible detail, I know, but it kind of matters to me.

DC

 

[ByronBlack]

DC - Thanks for the futher detail, much appreciated!

 

[Harbo]

Before this lengthy debate on saws took place, I had ordered a Crown dovetail saw which came out as "Best value" in FWW's saw test.
It has just arrived and I am a bit disappointed with it in that it cuts very slowly with quite a wide kerf. I tried it out on some oak and it was beaten hands down by my cheapo Axminster Dozuki.
I might try filing down the set to see if that improves things?

I see that Sunchild JS's have been mentioned - are Thanet the only suppliers - they do not seem to have a web page?

Workshop Heaven have a white steel Dozuki for hard woods but it is not the cheapest at £59

Rod

 

[engineer one]

rod as has been mentioned before the zona saws have come out wellin tests, particularly fww. i think axminster have them in stock too and not too expensive.

paul :wink:

 

[ByronBlack]

Rod,

Workshop heaven also do a dozuki for £33 which I believe to be similar to the sunchild. Linky

I have had two dozuki's from axminster, and after first being pleased with them, over time i've come to realise they aren't all that great - espeically in hardwoods.

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[dchenard]

Rod,

Workshop heaven also do a dozuki for £33 which I believe to be similar to the sunchild. Linky

I have had two dozuki's from axminster, and after first being pleased with them, over time i've come to realise they aren't all that great - espeically in hardwoods.

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Looks like a good saw, the only question is whether it has rip or crosscut teeth, from the count (about 17 TPI) it should be a rip saw, but I would ask before buying, so that you get what you were expecting...

DC

 

[Frank D.]

I have the Sun Child and the another dozuki by Gyokucho; they don't have the same teeth (Sun Child has combination teeth which help it rip more aggressively yet cut smoothly). I'm not sure about the one in the pic; it would surprise me if the teeth were rip, but I have no idea. At first I wasn't crazy about Japanese saws in hardwood, but ease (efficiency) comes with practice. Now I have little or no trouble cutting through all kinds of domestic and tropical hardwoods. I switch back and forth between Japanese and Western saws depending on my mood (I like both).
2¢

 

[dchenard]

Hey Frank, did you buy the LV rip dozuki? You seemed to like it when you test-drove it :wink:

DC

 

[Frank D.]

Yes Denis,
It's still on my list, but I'm doing a ton of carpentry work these days, and trying to set up a forge, so the saw will have to wait. Not to mention my speeding ticket I got on vacation... :evil:

 

[David C]

Harbo,

Many UK dovetail saws are massively overset,

Remove excess set carefully with a fine slipstone. This will improve things enormously.

Don't remove it all or the saw will stick and need a trip to a sawdoctor.

for Sunchild, (which no longer has the name on the blade but;

Razorsaw 0.3-240 No. S-311

Thanet tools, phone Sean on 01233 501010

David Charlesworth

 

[Keefaz]

I'm still very much a beginner and use virtually nothing but fairly cheap Jap saws. For the novice who has very little idea about how to sharpen and set-up a Western saw, they're perfect: razor-sharp, can be used without set-up, and leave a thin, clean cut. They do have drawbacks--teeth break, they can be occasionally wayward and impossible to correct--but the alternative seems too frightening for the novice: saw sets?! Tooth angles?! Kerf?!

 

[David C]

I have never broken a tooth off a sunchild, nor have any of my students.

However we keep them for dovetailing in relatively thin hardwood, perhaps 8mm -15mm, and other delicate cuts.

Breakage is usually caused by using softwood crosscut teeth in hardwoods.

David C

 

[Harbo]

As David C suggested, I have removed some of the set from my Crown saw and it has made a difference - but unfortunately I forgot to take some measurements before I started
However the blade is 0.55mm thick and the set thickness is now 0.89mm.
Reading the article on saw setting on the Vintagesaw site, it recommends an increase in blade thickness of 20% to 30% depending on the type of wood used. This would mean a set thickness of 0.65mm to 0.72mm - so I still have a way to go? However, as the blade does not appear to be taper ground, it also states that it should require more set - any recommendations?


Rod

 

[David C]

Three thousandth's of an inch on either side is more than adequate for a dovetail saw.

Don't know about other saws, but the bigger they are the more set they will require.

0.1mm is almost exactly 4 thou"

David Charlesworth

 

[Harbo]

I have just received Vols 1 & 2 of David C's books where lots of my queries have been covered.
I have yet to try the paper thickness set test but have been using a dial micrometer instead.
On another matter I got quite excited about David's query about the sources of curve templates for as a Civil Engineer I have a box of Railway Curves which were used for drawing road alignments as well as railway track layouts.
Then I realised that I have had mine for about 30 years and a search on Google did not reveal any suppliers - another aid replaced by the computer!

Rod

 

[engineer one]

at scrit's request, i have re-read Joyce, and noticed his mentioning
drawing squares, t squares etc. can't get those in the large sizes easily any more.
:roll:
paul :wink: