Japanese Saws vs. Western Saws

[Anonymous]

Just a few idle thoughts as I'm not particularly interested in japanese saws 'though I'd have a go if I had one:
Isn't the quality of the sharpening the most important thing whatever variety of saw you use? Makes comparisons a bit meaningless?
What would happen if you sharpened a normal saw with a japanese pattern of tooth?
Is there any particular advantage in a pull instead of push saw? Seems unlikely to me - how do you control the cut?

cheers
Jacob

 

[engineer one]

interesting comments jacob, but why do you think a push saw is better able to cut a straight line than pulling???

as i have said earlier, it is always easier to use what you are used to, and learning a new skill has to be an obvious advantage.

by its very nature, a push saw must be thicker and by definition therefore stronger. and thus will give a wider kerf and not necessarily a decent finish to the cut unless you are very proficient. in addition, most european saws are too general in their sharpening.

interestingly rather like your idea about sharpening chisels, the most effective way to use a european saw is in a kind of dipping movement
which in one way is quite difficult to learn, and probably bad for your joints.
the pull saw being in a more straight line and at a lower angle offers the chance to cut more of the line in one go. offering with skill a better chance of getting a straight line. the down side is of course the sawdust collects on the line :? :lol: and of course the thinner blade bends, and can more easily go off line.

but as i have said before since few of us learn with well sharpened saws, it is easier to get used to a japanese saw when returning. it is only when you discover that a european saw can be sharp and accurate that you renew your interest in them. :roll:

it is though different strokes for different folks :lol:

paul :wink:

 

[pam niedermayer]

... One thing to remember about Japanese saws, one can't correct a cut once started, the blade is too thin....

DC, I think this is more due to the very narrow sets. Other than that, very good post.

Pam

 

[Anonymous]

interesting comments jacob, but why do you think a push saw is better able to cut a straight line than pulling???

You tell me :roll: I guess mainly because with a push saw you can see where the saw is going in and adjust it to the line.

as i have said earlier, it is always easier to use what you are used to, and learning a new skill has to be an obvious advantage.
by its very nature, a push saw must be thicker and by definition therefore stronger. and thus will give a wider kerf and not necessarily a decent finish to the cut unless you are very proficient. in addition, most european saws are too general in their sharpening.

Right - so it's the sharpening, not the design of the saw, that's what I wondered

interestingly rather like your idea about sharpening chisels, the most effective way to use a european saw is in a kind of dipping movement
which in one way is quite difficult to learn, and probably bad for your joints.

First I've heard of this joint prob! It's probably a question of getting in the right position - saw horses, bench heights etc

the pull saw being in a more straight line and at a lower angle offers the chance to cut more of the line in one go. offering with skill a better chance of getting a straight line. the down side is of course the sawdust collects on the line :? :lol: and of course the thinner blade bends, and can more easily go off line.

Whole saw in the kerf absolutely not a prob with normal back saw - recently covered in the threads on housings and dovetails. Why would jap saw be easier?

but as i have said before since few of us learn with well sharpened saws, it is easier to get used to a japanese saw when returning. it is only when you discover that a european saw can be sharp and accurate that you renew your interest in them. :roll:

it is though different strokes for different folks :lol:

paul :wink:

Sounds like it's basically down to the sharpening. Do I understand that jap saws can't be re-sharpened? We have our own excellent disposable equivalents here in the form of cheap hardpoint saws.

cheers
Jacob

 

[dchenard]

DC - as mentioned, my opinion is based on the two people that i've spoken to and read from mentioned in my previous post, so i'm quite happy to take a second opinion as you sound well informed on the subject. The one's i've used have mostly been from the Ice Bear range from Axminster - they're great for small jobs, and i've used them for dovetails but they weren't anywhere near as good as the sunchild one.

DC - since you seem to be somewhat of an expert on this subject, atleast more expert than I, could you recommend a couple of saws (and makers) and if you know: a place to buy them in the UK? I personally, would like a good Ryoba, and something to give me a good crosscut in 1" to 1.5" hardwood. I think part of the problem with the high-end saws is that there is simply a massive choice, and it's hard to distinguish what is good and what is not. Which leads back to the problem that most dozuki's in this country - and I would guess are at the budget end of the scale are only suitable for softwoods.

And finally, do you know of a good website, that perhaps reviews and compares the various makers of this saws?

Expert, ho hum... :roll: You've already read most of what I know...

For a crosscut saw, Axminster carries the Z-saw I was talking about. Check for item 110 050. That saw was voted the best crosscut saw in the FWW review. And Axminster sells it at a good price, I had to pay more than that over here. 240 mm, 26 TPI, that's the one with the red sticker (don't buy the blue sticker one in the same size, item 110 039, not nearly as nice, thick kerf, and doesn't cut any faster despite the lower TPI count).

As far as ryoba saws go, I've always thought they were a goofy idea, if you'll pardon the disrespect. True, they don't have a spine to get in the way, but the teeth on the other side do, so depth of cut is limited anyway. Convenient for site jobs, I guess...

Instead of a Ryoba I would go with a kataba (teeth on one side only, also spelled kataha), one rip and one crosscut. Again, Axminster carries those in the Z-Saw line, items 110039 (crosscut) and 110041 (rip). Haven't tried them myself, but I've tried three different Z-Saws so far and they all worked well, or better. Keep in mind that the tooth count on Japanese saws is usually dependent upon length of the blade, on 10" or so saws like these two the rip one should have something like 10 TPI, and the crosscut could be something like 17 to 20. You'd have to check with Axminster, as they don't quote the "dentition". Gyokucho (the makers of the sunchild) also make decent saws at reasonable prices, not sure where you can get them, though.

If you still want a ryoba, good ones start at about $100 apparently. In increasing price (and quality?) order, Nakaya, Chuyemon, Mitsukawa are reputed to be very good. Mitsukawa also makes machine-made saws for less than $100. Then there's Kaneharu, Yataiki...

You are right about the massive choice available, especially in the low price category, with all kinds of makers, to which we add "private label" brands, it's enough to get lost quickly (haven't found your "Ice Bear" saws on Axminster's site, BTW). Unfortunately many of those saws are rubbish, and people try them, find them unsatisfactory, and then dismiss all Japanese saws based on that experience.

The best resource I've found on Japanese tools is the forum at www.japanesetools.com. There you have some of the most experienced Japanese tool users in the western world, and they are extremely helpful. I know I learned a whole lot there. Discussions are often centered around "top rung of the ladder" tools, but they will discuss anything.

In the end, though, I'm not sure that I will dwelve much into large Japanese saws. Maybe it's my lack of experience, but between ripping a board with a western saw and a ryoba/kataba, I would choose the bandsaw :wink: Seriously though, having 26" of teeth on a western saw vs. 10-12" on a Japanese one, I would go with the long stroke saw... I'll have to buy a kataba to find out

HTH,

DC

 

[dchenard]

Ooo, "ham-fisted gorillas" eh? Ooo, that's good. Anyone going to play the "wrapped up in a yak hide on top of a mountain listening to the sound of one hand sawing" card in retaliation? I've brought popcorn...

Cheers, Alf

Alf, I wasn't targeting anyone by that comment, before someone gets out the tar and feathers :shock:

DC ccasion5:

 

[engineer one]

jacob, couple more thoughts.

certainly when i got my first pull saw, it was a shark, and they were modern designed to take advantage of the idea by using more modern and productionised techniques. but specifically the promotion involved using the saw at a very low angle to the wood, between 10 and 15 degrees was suggested. my understanding of the way in which euro saws are designed, plus the larger teeth, means that it is much more difficult to work initially at such a low angle with those.

and indeed it does seem that in the majority of instances those japanese or pull saws available in this country are not meant to be resharpened.
the tooth shape makes a difference, whilst the use of up to three profiles makes it difficult too. maybe that's why they are sold with the ability to replace the blades. :?

anyway the important thing is that if you have the time to practice then they have certain advantages, but if you are used to a euro saw it is a more difficult transition. again i would say that most of us who tried them,
even we then used euro's later had been put off by blunt saws, and the need to sharpen properly.

having said that, i seem to remember that the late lamented jim kingshott used to say that all japanese tools needed fettling before using. things like the shark were a design to overcome that problem.

paul :wink:

 

[javali]

Eight months ago my daughter gave me a Gyokucho ryoba. An impressive tool. The cuts are as smooth as a baby's bum, and just as straight. After two months of trying to get straight cuts out of the thing, it now hangs in my tools-nice-to-look-at corner of the shed, a.k.a. the not-so-useful-tools corner.

Japanese saws may be good for some people. I like my Disstons and Sorbys. Warranted Superiors are not bad either.

 

[Anonymous]

Eight months ago my daughter gave me a Gyokucho ryoba. An impressive tool. The cuts are as smooth as a baby's bum, and just as straight. After two months of trying to get straight cuts out of the thing, it now hangs in my tools-nice-to-look-at corner of the shed, a.k.a. the not-so-useful-tools corner.

Japanese saws may be good for some people. I like my Disstons and Sorbys. Warranted Superiors are not bad either.

Right :lol:
Mine are a set of Sanderson & Kayser "The British Saw" plus various Spear & Jackson and old Tyzack and a very ordinary Disston. Non of them special but I like them all, including a plastic handled cheapo which I've had for years which sharpens up really well. I regard it as disposable and use it where there may be nails but so far have not had to chuck it.
So if I wanted to find out for myself what is the point of a Japanese saw which single one (not too pricey :roll: ) would the team suggest I should buy?

cheers
Jacob

 

[engineer one]

wait for the next offer at lidl/aldi and try one of those,
generally less than ten quid and a useful starting point

paul :wink:

 

[dchenard]

Jacob, what kind of work do you intend to use your "test Japanese saw" for? That would help in determining the right saw for you :wink:

DC

 

[ByronBlack]

Jacob - Axminster do a range of budget saws for you to try out.

 

[Anonymous]

Jacob, what kind of work do you intend to use your "test Japanese saw" for? That would help in determining the right saw for you :wink:

DC

At the moment window frames from 2 1/2" redwood, 1/2" m&tenons, but have several hardwood restoration jobs on the side. I'd want 12" tenon saw equivalent I suppose, or "general purpose".
Needless to say I do the bulk with machines but a fair bit of hand work nevertheless.

cheers
Jacob

 

[Paul Kierstead]

A few months ago, one of our local association members purchased a DT saw made by Ed Paik, an up-and-coming Canadian saw maker, and wanted our (the other association members') opinion. It did well, somewhat better than the LN another member brought for comparison. Another member brought a Pax, and was quickly convinced to return it because it performed so poorly (I think sharpening was an issue here). But the best cutting saw was a cheap gent's saw sharpened by Tom Law (of sharpening video fame). I didn't want to kill the party so I didn't bring my rip dozuki. Maybe I should have, because it would have blown all these western saws in a New York minute...

Well I was there; you state your conclusions as if they were fact or consensus, but they are no such thing. The Paik saw was good, but not "somewhat better" then the LN in my opinion; about equal. Also in my opinion, the cheap gents saw was *worse* then both the LN and Paik (it was a great sharpening job, but that alone does not make a great saw). I'll give you the Pax on though I also own the LV Rip Dozuki (actually, I have a few Dozuki's); I know you are a fan, but "blown away"? Get real, you are engaging in way too much hype here. All three (i.e. not the Pax) are fine saws that will get the job done quite competently with a little practice.

 

[dchenard]

A few months ago, one of our local association members purchased a DT saw made by Ed Paik, an up-and-coming Canadian saw maker, and wanted our (the other association members') opinion. It did well, somewhat better than the LN another member brought for comparison. Another member brought a Pax, and was quickly convinced to return it because it performed so poorly (I think sharpening was an issue here). But the best cutting saw was a cheap gent's saw sharpened by Tom Law (of sharpening video fame). I didn't want to kill the party so I didn't bring my rip dozuki. Maybe I should have, because it would have blown all these western saws in a New York minute...

Well I was there; you state your conclusions as if they were fact or consensus, but they are no such thing.

True, it should have been mentioned that this was my opinion of the saws, but many of the people who tried the saws and with whom I chatted afterwards shared my opinions. Not all of them, but many. Doesn't make for a consensus, I'll give you that, there was at least one dissenting voice :mrgreen:

The Paik saw was good, but not "somewhat better" then the LN in my opinion; about equal.

Matter of opinion for sure, I stand by what I've said. But I didn't want to be accused of "hyping" the Paik saw :evil: :lol:

Also in my opinion, the cheap gents saw was *worse* then both the LN and Paik (it was a great sharpening job, but that alone does not make a great saw). I'll give you the Pax on though

I mentioned "the best cutting saw", should have said "best sharpening job" #-o Oh well, that was clear in my head at least...

I also own the LV Rip Dozuki (actually, I have a few Dozuki's); I know you are a fan, but "blown away"? Get real, you are engaging in way too much hype here. All three (i.e. not the Pax) are fine saws that will get the job done quite competently with a little practice.

Which rip dozuki are you referring to? This one (item a)?

Or this one (the one I'm talking about)? . If that's the one you have, I would suggest you try using it again, what I and LV say about it is definitely no hype, and I am real, not complex :roll:

All saws are fine, even the Pax would be too if it spent some time in the hands of a competent sharpener (but it would still be ugly). But apart from the couple clarifications above, I stand by what I said.

DC, 44 + 0i

 

[Anonymous]

Praps ought to keep out of these or it could end up like the 7 Samurai :shock:
Had a look at APTC but: presumably non sharpenable, do I want these? In any case the 2 little saws only do what I already do OK with a very sharpenable long life dovetail saw, so not a good alternative OTFOI ("on the face of it" incase you thought that was the name of a Japanese sawmaker).
Perhaps I'll wait until one falls off the back of a lorry.

cheers
Jacob

 

[Paul Kierstead]

Or this one (the one I'm talking about)? . If that's the one you have, I would suggest you try using it again, what I and LV say about it is definitely no hype, and I am real, not complex :roll:

That one. I bought it when it first came out, and use it regularly; probably close to every session in the shop. I like it quite a bit for certain jobs, including quite a few crosscut ones like sawing shoulders of tenons, which it does extremely well in spite of being "rip". I use about 5 saws very very regularly (I do about 80% of all sawing by hand). It is a very good saw, but "blow away" the others? I can't agree; it has its positive points and negative points.

Since I tend to vector off in odd directions, I can only conclude I have a complex part

 

[jaspr]

I have very limited experience with japanese saws - I only own one - a Gyokucho crosscut. Never used one to dovetail.

I find I like it quite a lot. It's easy to start and cuts quickly.

But I do have one comment. Someone pointed out that they are tempered to a relatively high level, thus making them stronger. I would posit that this is essential because of the thinness of the blade. Without it, they would be too brittle.

Why do I say this? Well ... Someone (who shall remain nameless) borrowed mine - and returned it with a couple of bent teeth. It was probably just a soft knock (and I know that no-one on this forum would do such a thing to a saw blade!), but because the teeth are so thin and quite long, they bent over alarmingly. I was able to puish them back into position, but I think it has still affected the kerf width.

So - yes, hardened, but still fragile. Beware.

Scit - sounds like rather than change over altogether, you should first get yourself a good one - Sunchild dozuki is the one recommended by people who's opinion I value - and try it out along side your existing saws.

 

[Philipp]

Ideally if I'm going to make the change I'd like to replace my dovetail and carcass (back/tenon) saws first (that's 4 saws in total), followed later by the panel and rip saws. The work I envisage is mainly hardwoods, so, who has experience of these and what do you think?

Scrit, in order to speak for the JS (I know, a bit contrary to my former post) I would recommend these ones:

Dovetails: http://www.fine-tools.com/G312180.htm#zield182
Great little ripping dozuki which does a very good job but needs careful handling due to very thin blade. 22 Eur.

Fine crosscuts: http://www.fine-tools.com/G312180.htm#zield184
In my view better suited for fine cross-cuts than the much larger, but also very fine-toothed http://www.fine-tools.com/G309320.htm.

For quicker cross-cuts I like this Kataba best:

http://www.dick.biz
Search for item 712471 (my link doesn't work).
I prefer the "European" handle much over the - in my point of view - unergonomic long and straight handles of most JS.
This saw is good in price (20 Eur), other blades for different materials are being offered. Cuts very quickly and flat/true when combined with the saw guide
http://www.dick.biz
Search for item 712460 (my link doesn't work).

Best regards

Philipp

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Scrit, in answer to your original post, away back in the mists of time now, and having reviewed comments in this thread, here's my take.

I've tried a few of the Japanese saws over the years, and not a darned one has really worked for me. Don't get me wrong, Japanese saws are fine tools and in the hands of an accomplished user I know they work beautifully.

The first time I came across them back in the 1970's I think it was, I was very impressed by how fast they cut. So I purchased one and tried it. I hated the floppy blade that couldn't be re-directed if it went off line. I disliked my line getting hidden by sawdust. I couldn't stand the way the handle kept whacking my elbow on every pull stroke. I was irritated that I couldn't get a coping saw blade into the kerf to nip off the waste of dovetails.

It didn't take long before I abandoned the saw to nipping off dowels and other bits and bobs. I lost it eventually and didn't miss it. Actually I think I chucked it away- I don't recall.

Then, fifteen or so years later in the nineties I gave them another go. I have no idea why really. It just seemed I ought to check out the hoopla that all the Americans around me were going on about. I didn't want to be closed to new ideas. Same results, only this time I also noticed the blasted teeth broke off easy-peasy. $20 of wasted money. Tossed in the dumpster.

I still come across Japanese saw users, ie, my students when they bring them in and can't cut to a line. I have to show them how it's done. So I grab their saws and away to go. For me, they're still awkward and uncomfortable to use, and the thing I hate most is that handle whacking my elbow on every pull stroke. It knocks the tool off-line all the time.

I suppose I should change my grip. I can't get out of the habit of gripping a saw right up by the blade, western style. I've tried holding those Japanese things further away from the blade, and it just doesn't work that way either.

So, after several efforts at using Japanese saws, unsuccessfully each time, I'm sticking with my western saws. They work, they're fast and they're accurate. Most importantly, they suit me, and that's all I need to know. Slainte.