Japanese Chisels

[Beau]

Noticed in another thread a few members warning against buying Japanese Chisels. Not wanting to derail that thread thought it best to start afresh.

When I first trained I started with a set of boxwood Marples and picked up few Old English chisels over the years. Then tried some Japanese ones and to me they seemed far superior even the basic Oire Nomi. Easier to flatten (leave it Jacob), better edge and most important to me just better balanced to use. So what am I missing?

 

[custard]

So what am I missing?

-More brittle in use and easily chipped. Not a problem if you're careful and never lever them, but too temperamental for a beginning woodworker.
-Decent ones need the hoops fitting, again that's a minefield for a beginner.
-Quite rust prone, dodgy if they live in a damp shed and only get used every now and again.
-Harder to find some of the interim sizes that come in very useful for stuff like dovetailing
-Little if any advantages over western chisels for 99% of practical woodworking jobs

 

[D_W]

What are basic oire nomi? (by that, I mean what price are we talking about?)

I have a couple of sets of japanese chisels, and I've had relatively expensive sets in the past but can't make a case that I need them (so they went out in a package to someone else).

I'd say that for chopping type work, the japanese chisels are technically better unless you get caught up in wacky super hard chisels, etc, and then they become something you have to skill-build to use without damaging.

By technically better, I mean you can literally sit down and cut rows and rows of sockets with a single finishing stone and the chisel will be in ideal shape when you're done with nothing but a few wipes on the finish stone during the process (no strop, no nothing). The white steel chisels also sharpen wonderfully on a washita stone if you can keep from damaging them (and they are barely cut by one, so they are masterfully sharp off of them).

That said, if you're going to try to use them like English chisels (mild paring, or looking for delicate bevels to go into corners), you won't be very satisfied, and if you've not gotten over damaging tools, they're not such a great option.

I don't know that there's much out there these days that's similar to the old boxwood handled marples, though. Maybe Ashley Iles Mk 2, but some of the rest of the stuff (stubai, two cherries, etc. is fairly gross)

 

[Beau]

So what am I missing?

-More brittle in use and easily chipped. Not a problem if you're careful and never lever them, but too temperamental for a beginning woodworker.
-Decent ones need the hoops fitting, again that's a minefield for a beginner.
-Quite rust prone, dodgy if they live in a damp shed and only get used every now and again.
-Harder to find some of the interim sizes that come in very useful for stuff like dovetailing
-Little if any advantages over western chisels for 99% of practical woodworking jobs

Honestly amazed to here all that Custard

Yes the top flight ones are brittle but more basic models?

Cant say I ever worried about fitting the hoop but very rarely use a hammer on a chisel anyway

Never had any problems with rust and I live on Dartmoor which is about as wet as you can get

No idea on the sizes so I will leave that

Way sharper/longer lived edge is achievable IME but not tried lots of brands only Ward and Marples

 

[Beau]

Deleted duplicate

 

[D_W]

Edge holding in english chisels doesn't get a lot better than ward.

In terms of brittle, I haven't noticed the mid-grade chisels to be that brittle (japanese), but they are a bit more picky about appropriate use due to hardness (cuts are straight in, that's it). You can lever with them, but they have to be set so that you can, and the narrow ones can be broken if you're trying to lever a mortise and being rough with them.

If I were stuck with one set, I'd have the english type over japanese, though. We like to use our chisels for more stuff than chopping sockets and mortises, and the japanese don't really have much in the way of delicate edge chisels similar to what you find on the old marples, except maybe push chisels.

Really doesn't matter with any of them if you can learn to sharpen each quickly.

 

[ED65]

...and most important to me just better balanced to use.

Just on this, obviously a horses for courses type of thing anyway but "Japanese chisels" does cover a multitude.

Some do look beautifully balanced to my eye and might be just as good in the hand too, but equally some others do not look well balanced to me and I've read comments (from Western users) who say they thought the same when using them so they've had to do something with the handles to address that, including in some cases replacing them. This seems like madness to me given what they cost but we woodworkers are a mad lot sometimes!

 

[Beau]

Edge holding in english chisels doesn't get a lot better than ward.

If I were stuck with one set, I'd have the english type over japanese, though. We like to use our chisels for more stuff than chopping sockets and mortises, and the japanese don't really have much in the way of delicate edge chisels similar to what you find on the old marples, except maybe push chisels.

My Ward is made of cheese :shock: nice delicate handle though and the only English chisel I will reach for in the workshop. My Marples are rreligated for rough site work.

My Marples edge is OK but the clumsy handles and the overly long blades do my head in.

Cant say about the quality of my Oire Nomi. Think my first was classed as Bronze Seal. Then picked up some cheap ones in a sale from Tilgear, think it was £20 for 3. Not classily fished but lovely to use once fettled.

 

[custard]

looking for delicate bevels to go into corners

I'd forgotten that. You're right, the ones I've seen/used generally had pretty thick lands on the edges, so not great for dovetailing.

I got a set of these for just that reason,

https://www.fine-tools.com/zinkenstemmeisen.html

they're beautiful tools, but I can't see any difference in the dovetails I make with these versus the dovetails I make with much cheaper western chisels. The white steel these are made from has no or very little chromium content, which I understand is why they're more rust prone; but I'm no metallurgist so that might all be nonsense. What I can vouch for is it took me several hours to fit the hoops. For many hobbyists just researching how to fit the hoops, and then doing it on a full set of chisels, might take up all their woodworking time for a month.

Most people will use their chisels as levers from time to time, beginners do it constantly. If you try to lever out chips with these chisels it will absolutely end in tears.

So, are they worth it? For 99% of woodworkers, and 100% of beginning hobbyists, the answer is a resounding no.

 

[Beau]

So, are they worth it? For 99% of woodworkers, and 100% of beginning hobbyists, the answer is a resounding no.

I love most of your posts Custard but thats a very dogmatic view that I cant see evidence for. I will give you the thick lands on the edges but the rest is misleading IMO and my Marples are hardly ideal for dovetailing

As I say cant see fitting the hoops matter much. I have never bothered and they are more than up to the occasion bump of persuasion when needed.

Levering with an edge is surly bad practice and only useful when cutting mortices which with a bit of care can be done with them anyway

No rust on any or my chisels Japanese or otherwise. It's not that my workshop is dry as the machine beds often get a signs or rust on the beds.

 

[RossJarvis]

I have a couple of Japanese chisels, one for bashing and one for paring. They are miles better than my Bahco orange handled chisels for both jobs and a fair bit better than my Stanley's. They stay sharper much longer mainly. Yes they may chip a bit easier but they don't blunt or deform anywhere near as easy, the Bahcos will bend long before the Japs will chip!. The problem is that it's very difficult to compare like to like. Overall it may be possible to find European chisels better than Japanese ones, but not so easy to say why. Not all Japanese chisels are the same, nor are European ones. My Koyamaichi Ore Nomi can be bashed into oak for hours with a framing hammer and perform very well, I can't think of any European chisel which will perform as well. My cheap black handled Stanleys also keep a much better edge than my Bahcos. I'm sure the discussion could go on for ever. Look around and you can find some excellent chisels for all sorts of task, some may be English, some may be Japanese. It's possible that some Swede even made a decent chisel...once.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It's possible that some Swede even made a decent chisel...once :shock: - haven't you seen the prices A. E. Bergs fetch?

 

[Beau]

This thread got me wondering if I was alone in my liking of the Japanese chisels. Reading a few reviews I can see there are plenty who like them but when did they get so expensive in the UK? Only sensible looking priced ones I found other than unknown Ebay ones was these https://www.fine-tools.com/stemjap.html

 

[thetyreman]

depends (like anything) how it's made, if you get some steel that isn't mass manufactured and is hand made by a master blacksmith in a tiny village in japan, it's likely to be amazing quality steel, and the price will reflect that, I own a japanese kitchen knife and it's phenominally sharp, it's hand forged white paper steel and not cheap either but the edge it holds is sharper than anything else I have used so far.

 

[Glynne]

I started a thread some time ago and received pretty much the same comments - as in there is little if any advantage over western chisels.
On a purely technical basis, I'm sure this is true and there is another thread that is running that debating all of the technicalities.
However, for me woodwork is more than just pure technical work and if I like the feel of a tool then I'm more likely to be proficient with it (or less hamfisted).
I have a beautiful set of LN chisels bought for me several years ago and use these most of the time but I've had a fascination with Japanese chisels for some time and so I bought several of the Japanese dovetail chisels that Custard refers to (which come with the hoops already fitted).
I absolutely love them. I only use them for dovetailing small pieces (I primarily make boxes) but I love the feel and balance of them.
So, did I really need them - No
Is there anything wrong with my LNs - No
I'm sure if you challenged people on many of their purchases, very few would come out purely on technical attributes alone. Certainly important, but for me not everything and so if you like the idea of Japanese chisels and you can afford them, then try a couple.
If you don't like them you can always sell them on but can I have first dibs if you do!

 

[Beau]

I started a thread some time ago and received pretty much the same comments - as in there is little if any advantage over western chisels.
On a purely technical basis, I'm sure this is true and there is another thread that is running that debating all of the technicalities.
However, for me woodwork is more than just pure technical work and if I like the feel of a tool then I'm more likely to be proficient with it (or less hamfisted).
I have a beautiful set of LN chisels bought for me several years ago and use these most of the time but I've had a fascination with Japanese chisels for some time and so I bought several of the Japanese dovetail chisels that Custard refers to (which come with the hoops already fitted).
I absolutely love them. I only use them for dovetailing small pieces (I primarily make boxes) but I love the feel and balance of them.
So, did I really need them - No
Is there anything wrong with my LNs - No
I'm sure if you challenged people on many of their purchases, very few would come out purely on technical attributes alone. Certainly important, but for me not everything and so if you like the idea of Japanese chisels and you can afford them, then try a couple.
If you don't like them you can always sell them on but can I have first dibs if you do!

Good post Glynne

When I started this I had not realised how much they cost these days. When I first bought some they were maybe 50% more than Marples blue chip if that. Never advocating the top flight ones as my only expensive Japanese chisel was not much use as it was more like Custard describes ie very brittle and never gets used. I just use the lower end ones which still take a great edge and as you mention they just have a lovely balance which makes them a pleasure to use. I never viewed them as a "high end option" just a different one but clearly they are associated with expensive and I can now see why.

 

[katellwood]

Been reading this with interest

This is what I've been using for a good few years now

These were sold to me as temple-makers chisels (I do like the additional length for certain tasks)

I hit them with these

for paring I use these

this is excellent for lap dovetails

for the narrower chisels a Kell honing guide is invaluable

my original stanleys and marples which i purchased as an apprentice in the mid seventies are now generally used they few times I'm on site

I've never had issues with the cutting edge chipping and they've cut numerous dovetails and other joints in some hard timbers

Personally I find them excellent.

 

[Beau]

Katellwood

You have clearly tried a few types of Japanese chisel.
Any recommendations on brands and qualities for value conscious everyday use?

 

[D_W]

Really nice clean work there!

The late Jim Kingshott has a video that is sold here (and there, I'm guessing) where he said something along the lines of (paraphrased) -"i hate to admit it, but these are better than anything English"

 

[katellwood]

Mine were purchased from a company called

"A Craftsmans Choice" which was part of Thanet Tool Supplies based in Ashford Kent.

If I were purchasing today I would probably go to Matthew at Workshop Heaven or Axminster for a reasonably priced set

Classic hand tools supply superior damascus steel chisels with multiple ura (the hollow in the back) but for most are prohibitively expensive

fine-tools.com also supply decent tools

I would strongly suggest that they are for shop use only and not really suitable for site work.

mine take and keep a fine edge for a long time and i love using them.

funnily enough I got into these tools after reading Jim Kingshotts books and watching his video's at the same time as i decided i needed a set of chisels for shop use only.