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Invasion of US Capitol building

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harryc

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When did the BLM movement ever try and over throw the govt?

Not even sure why you are comparing the two!

One a movement wanting the rights of all people to be observed and the other a white supremacist and conspiracy led nut case mob.
 

D_W

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When did the BLM movement ever try and over throw the govt?

Not even sure why you are comparing the two!

One a movement wanting the rights of all people to be observed and the other a white supremacist and conspiracy led nut case mob.
If these guys were trying to "overthrow" the government, staying in a building for 3 hours wasn't a very good way to do it.

You're missing the point. Both movements think they have a point. I think BLM's is valid, but the rioting that occurred afterwards with self-justified looting, shooting police, etc, is something you're glossing over. You can tell me those were small issues, but my neighbor - literally across the street - was knocked to the ground and kicked by BLM fanatics at a rally because he was taking footage for the news station. He wasn't "in the middle of it", rather members of the group ran up to him and accosted him.

What did he do that people didn't like? He as filming a group vandalizing police cars (if a cameraman is at an event, of course, they're going to film that).

The parts of this group that got violent should be charged, and the parts who trespassed should be charged. That didn't really happen much with the BLM group.
 

D_W

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Yeah but you still gotta do bad stuff to get there, or be very stupid 3 times, so try not to cry too much for them compared to being in a Thai prison eh?
There aren't too many people in US prisons who are totally innocent, but there's definitely people who made bad choices and wouldn't make the same one a second time. I'm guessing that it's a little easier to be a prisoner here than it is in some places, but not in others. Central America, Russia, China, etc, are probably all worse. Being a political prisoner in china wouldn't be very promising.

I'd imagine that being on law enforcement and prosecutorial to-do lists in most places is a bad idea.
 

Jacob

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harryc

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@D_W
Your last sentence gives away your thought process and the issues you have in your country.
 

D_W

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Your last sentence gives away your thought process and the issues you have in your country.
>>I'd imagine that being on law enforcement and prosecutorial to-do lists in most places is a bad idea.<<

That line? You're seeing things through a rosy lens. I like the police. When we have stupid movements like "Defund the police" I don't agree with any of that. Aside from that, the police do a lot of outreach here to generate informing and to be trusted, but the legal view in general is there is a chance that if you bring the police or legal system in on a simple matter, you can end up in trouble wrongly. Even for honest reasons.

I'm sure this kind of thing never happens in other countries. :rolleyes:

Having simplistic views is easy. Having two part views is almost as easy, and a lot smarter. That is:
1) appreciating the peace that exists due to the rule of law
2) not wanting to get tangled up in any of it personally
 

rafezetter

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Actually it's not that simple. Why American Prisons Owe Their Cruelty to Slavery (Published 2019)
".....The United States has the highest rate of incarceration of any nation on Earth: We represent 4 percent of the planet’s population but 22 percent of its imprisoned...."
That doesn't answer anything Jacob - you seem to writing from a standpoint that wholly innocent people are being dragged off the streets and incarcerated - please refer to my previous post, 99.9% earned thier fate, one way or another.

The US judiciary system just isn't that corrupt, not even when you take ehtnic minorities into account as the highest proportion of population.
 

Jacob

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.....The US judiciary system just isn't that corrupt, not even when you take ehtnic minorities into account as the highest proportion of population.
They are not though. "....As of July 2016, White Americans are the racial majority. Hispanic and Latino Americans are the largest ethnic minority, comprising an estimated 18% of the population. African Americans are the second largest racial minority, comprising an estimated 13.4% of the population...."
... 99.9% earned their fate, one way or another.
.......
Would that include slavery itself? Do you have any references backing up this astonishingly large and precise figure? Is the American justice system really so infallible?
 
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D_W

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That doesn't answer anything Jacob - you seem to writing from a standpoint that wholly innocent people are being dragged off the streets and incarcerated - please refer to my previous post, 99.9% earned thier fate, one way or another.

The US judiciary system just isn't that corrupt, not even when you take ehtnic minorities into account as the highest proportion of population.
We have the financial means to incarcerate, I guess. And a large enough economy to invite a variety of crimes.
 

D_W

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Would that include slavery itself? Do you have any references backing up this astonishingly large and precise figure? Is the American justice system so infallible?
Perhaps you could find some illustration of wrongful convictions, like the rate here. In my opinion, the laws (which surprisingly are in a liberal state) such as "three strikes and you're out" are stupid. Most first offenders in the US get off pretty easily. Not all, but most. If you live in an area and appear before a judge 3 times over 10 years, though, you're not doing yourself any favors.
 

harryc

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>>I'd imagine that being on law enforcement and prosecutorial to-do lists in most places is a bad idea.<<

That line? You're seeing things through a rosy lens. I like the police. When we have stupid movements like "Defund the police" I don't agree with any of that. Aside from that, the police do a lot of outreach here to generate informing and to be trusted, but the legal view in general is there is a chance that if you bring the police or legal system in on a simple matter, you can end up in trouble wrongly. Even for honest reasons.

I'm sure this kind of thing never happens in other countries. :rolleyes:

Having simplistic views is easy. Having two part views is almost as easy, and a lot smarter. That is:
1) appreciating the peace that exists due to the rule of law
2) not wanting to get tangled up in any of it personally
For sure we have racists in the British police force and military but none as far as I know have ever been implicated in trying to overthrow or govt by trying to storm parliament.

We have had major enquires after riots and the police handling of racist murders that have shown the police to be institutionally racist and hence there has been a major effort to root out such issues, not completely successful but still ongoing.

In comparison the police in America still seem to think they have to enforce the Jim Crow laws.

Wouldnt surprise me if most were Trumpsters.
 

D_W

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In comparison the police in America still seem to think they have to enforce the Jim Crow laws.

Wouldnt surprise me if most were Trumpsters.
This is an uneducated opinion based mostly on opinion pieces and cherry picked news. I'd imagine that if you went through the rioters and put them on a lie detector test and asked them why they were there, most were dopey enough to believe the election was stolen by fraud. I doubt many have an intent to eliminate the electoral system as it is or overturn accurate results.

It's pretty easy to make fantastic statements about institutional racism or "jim crow" laws if you never actually meet any officers in the US, or know any. My only unpleasant experiences with police have been riding a bike on a sidewalk as a kid, and getting a ticket from a misguided officer when I rode a bicycle through a stop sign in a park. The officer figured he'd give me a lecture on safety, then wrote me a ticket with an automobile code and refused to revise the ticket later (I had to go to a legislative subcommittee here to get it corrected). I'm sure there are racist people in your police departments, and I"m sure there are in ours. I'm also certain that there isn't a majority club in them who plays cards and decides what racist things they'll do - it's a minority of the officers.

To pretend that the rank and file officers in any country won't have issues with racism (the latter is the child of the UK and Europe, though - rates are double in both for the latter vs. here) or patterning based on what they see day to day at work is kind of goofy considering the problem exists in the general population. And where are officers hired from? Last I checked, they're actually people.

By the way, the county officer who arrested me was black, and I'm white as a sheet. Am I to believe he's racist? Of course not, that's absurd. He just was having a good time at my expense and didn't know the state code regarding bicycle traffic - which is really odd given the job pays well here and his patrol area is a park where people are exercising and constantly riding bicycles. He put his hands on his hips and gave me the full R. Lee Ermey treatment finally ending with "this is all for your safety". I wouldn't remember much of it if it hadn't been so much work to undo the ticket (and get a bicycle infraction removed from my driving record, as the automated documenting of the incident was "careless driving" based on the code the officer used. That code is used in this state for people who get caught falling asleep at the wheel while moving, and the insurer database picks that up automatically. Thanks, Officer Sid. "once we file the ticket, it's out of our hands. You have to go through the D.O.T.", who responded "the only way to get the ticket fixed is to have the issuing department file a correction" endless loop.

Illustrating what I said earlier - you can like the police and the safety that they provide (and nobody should kid themselves that they'd be safer without them), but avoiding dealing with them day to day is good policy. Committing crimes, getting caught and then complaining about unequal treatment isn't a smart policy.
 

harryc

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This is an uneducated opinion based mostly on opinion pieces and cherry picked news. I'd imagine that if you went through the rioters and put them on a lie detector test and asked them why they were there, most were dopey enough to believe the election was stolen by fraud. I doubt many have an intent to eliminate the electoral system as it is or overturn accurate results.

It's pretty easy to make fantastic statements about institutional racism or "jim crow" laws if you never actually meet any officers in the US, or know any. My only unpleasant experiences with police have been riding a bike on a sidewalk as a kid, and getting a ticket from a misguided officer when I rode a bicycle through a stop sign in a park. The officer figured he'd give me a lecture on safety, then wrote me a ticket with an automobile code and refused to revise the ticket later (I had to go to a legislative subcommittee here to get it corrected). I'm sure there are racist people in your police departments, and I"m sure there are in ours. I'm also certain that there isn't a majority club in them who plays cards and decides what racist things they'll do - it's a minority of the officers.

To pretend that the rank and file officers in any country won't have issues with racism (the latter is the child of the UK and Europe, though - rates are double in both for the latter vs. here) or patterning based on what they see day to day at work is kind of goofy considering the problem exists in the general population. And where are officers hired from? Last I checked, they're actually people.

By the way, the county officer who arrested me was black, and I'm white as a sheet. Am I to believe he's racist? Of course not, that's absurd. He just was having a good time at my expense and didn't know the state code regarding bicycle traffic - which is really odd given the job pays well here and his patrol area is a park where people are exercising and constantly riding bicycles. He put his hands on his hips and gave me the full R. Lee Ermey treatment finally ending with "this is all for your safety". I wouldn't remember much of it if it hadn't been so much work to undo the ticket (and get a bicycle infraction removed from my driving record, as the automated documenting of the incident was "careless driving" based on the code the officer used. That code is used in this state for people who get caught falling asleep at the wheel while moving, and the insurer database picks that up automatically. Thanks, Officer Sid. "once we file the ticket, it's out of our hands. You have to go through the D.O.T.", who responded "the only way to get the ticket fixed is to have the issuing department file a correction" endless loop.

Illustrating what I said earlier - you can like the police and the safety that they provide (and nobody should kid themselves that they'd be safer without them), but avoiding dealing with them day to day is good policy. Committing crimes, getting caught and then complaining about unequal treatment isn't a smart policy.
You are clearly unwilling to accept the inherent racism in your police force although to be fair it is endemic throughout most governmental structures.

No point debating anymore but I will remind you once the congressional enquires show how high level this whole sedition campaign was orchestrated from and the numbers of security involved.
 

D_W

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You are clearly unwilling to accept the inherent racism in your police force although to be fair it is endemic throughout most governmental structures.

No point debating anymore but I will remind you once the congressional enquires show how high level this whole sedition campaign was orchestrated from and the numbers of security involved.
Fantastic stories you tell. I think the racism in the police departments is a reflection of about what it is in society. It doesn't explain the entire imbalance in crime and incarceration, which is a correlation and not causation issue. The areas where crime is higher per capita are urban and poor rural areas. Poor rural tends to be what you guys may recognize as redneck (but you can't leave anything out in your yard for a second in places like that, and when you go to work, fair chance someone will eventually break into your house or garage and lift things).

What people have a lot of difficulty with is differentiating race and correlation from race and causation. And usually once that's grasped, then the blame is placed elsewhere, which I'm assuming you're a big fan of.

The problem is more complicated than just "they're racist and I'm not" or some other such thing. I'm sure you are faultless in this, though, and have been your entire life, as most finger-pointers tend to go that route.

I have gotten racially profiled by police once - and it was driving in DC. I don't know that anything in England could compare to parts of baltimore or DC. A friend and I got pulled over because we're white. The officer probably suspected we were looking for drugs or prostitutes, but we were lost (this was in the late 1990s, before GPS). It didn't take him long to figure out that we weren't locals and we were just lost, and the said "OK, follow me" and we trailed him back to a recognizable area. My college buddy is from north of detroit and I'm from central PA. we had no clue where we were, but being naive as I am, I figured it didn't matter - nobody will do anything. The officer that pulled me over wasn't white. I think we'd have been fine, but I guess he didn't (or maybe he was looking to bust johns, I don't know).

Reality is inconvenient for idealists and people who are problem solvers trying to fix things incrementally often get accused of being something they aren't. When's the last time an idealist actually fixed a problem all at once?

You're so far in the weeds that you think the people who headed to the capitol are convinced the election was fair, but they're overturning it, anyway. There may have been a small minority like that, but I seriously doubt it about the rest. This is the united states. I'd bet 90% of the group or greater owns firearms, yet only a couple of nutballs actually brought them. DC isn't the place to push limits on open carry or concealed carry, etc. If you think this group was headed to take over the country, forgot their guns and left in three hours, you have more faith than most fundamentalists.
 

Jacob

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..... Committing crimes, getting caught and then complaining about unequal treatment isn't a smart policy.
Unless there is unequal treatment of course. When did unequal treatment stop in the USA?
 

D_W

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Unless there is unequal treatment of course. When did unequal treatment stop in the USA?
Here's the reality part that you may have difficulty with, Jacob. The system is a combination of a real numerical difference along with unfair treatment on top of it. The trouble with idealists is they tend to pick one or the other and argue that the second point not convenient to them doesn't exist.

I don't do that. You assumed that I do, but you would be wrong. I am a problem solver for a living, but problems like encouraging or mandating cultural change to change the correlation is something that I would never attempt to wade through. It's not simple, and neither will be the transition.

Anyone wanting to recognize one side of the problem while ignoring the other is doomed to failure.
 

TRITON

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Settle down now ladies

Although to add fuel to the fire, though this is supposed to be about the capitol mob, there was a you tube vid i was watching the other day asking non US forces personnel what its like to fight along side their US counterparts.
Vast majority had good tales to tell, but many failed to understand the racism aspect, given US military contains a great deal of black soldiers. They felt there was definitely a racism problem.

I dont think anyone can deny racism is a huge problem in the US and has been for well over a hundred years.
That said, I personally believe racism is a problem everywhere, and that might just be down to the human condition of one being different from another. Simply nothing more than that.

Personally I prefer brown furniture to white. There, I've said it.
 

Jake

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The parts of this group that got violent should be charged, and the parts who trespassed should be charged. That didn't really happen much with the BLM group.
I think, haven't checked, that there were thousands of BLM arrests. Also, 10 killed by police in Chicago in 3 days wasn't it?

If these guys were trying to "overthrow" the government, staying in a building for 3 hours wasn't a very good way to do it.
I think as it comes out we will find some of them were seriously hunting people.
 

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