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Invasion of US Capitol building

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D_W

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By Sund's account, he wanted National Guard once the rally limit expanded but the heads of security for both houses (both also resigned) said they did not want National Guard there because it would look bad. Chief of the relevant National Guard has said they repeatedly offered their support and were declined by Sund.
I said earlier they didn't want to have a big opposition because of how it would look if they did show significant force and use it. I have no idea how this is different.

Imagine if you were sending an infantry to battle and you said "we're going to try to win this war. We're sending 1 guy in for every 20 of theirs, but believe us, we're really trying here".
 

Jake

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Set out to fail is a theory which takes you into questions about who and why. It's possible. Your's I understood originally to be more like the cops on the ground basically invited them in (along the lines of that one door) and actively did not try to resist entry, as opposed to people in command setting the guys on the ground up to fail. I agree the latter seems more likely, sand in the cogs etc.

I see DOJ is looking at sedition charges for insurrectionists.
 
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D_W

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Set out to fail is a theory which takes you into questions about who and why. It's possible. Your's I understood originally to be more like the cops on the ground basically invited them in (along the lines of that one door) and actively did not try to resist entry, as opposed to people in command setting the guys on the ground to fail. I agree the latter seems more likely, sand in the cogs etc.

I see DOJ is looking at sedition charges for insurrectionists.
it's a simple answer to me. Someone made a bad decision because they figured "they're not all coming in here, are they? If we had national guard on the steps, it could cause a fight or they'll just take pictures and post propaganda about it".

Apparently, at least if the account from the only person I've ever seen post anywhere (I don't know the guy well, but have never noticed him to be dishonest or indulge in gossip), they met no resistance at the door. It sounds like they met resistance later.

I'll bet half the group of people who went into the capitol is now thinking it wasn't as good of an idea as they thought it would be while they were there.

GOP is shedding registered voters like crazy right now.
 

D_W

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Set out to fail is a theory which takes you into questions about who and why. It's possible. Your's I understood originally to be more like the cops on the ground basically invited them in (along the lines of that one door) and actively did not try to resist entry, as opposed to people in command setting the guys on the ground up to fail. I agree the latter seems more likely, sand in the cogs etc.

I see DOJ is looking at sedition charges for insurrectionists.
To be quicker and shorter about what I said above, I don't think they set out to fail. I think they set out to not look bad, and that led to failure. I think in the middle of it, they set out not to have a response that looked bad. Several hours later, they finally did something about it. Why did they wait that long? I don't know.

Learned something else - if you're at risk for stroke or heart attack, maybe don't go to rallies that turn into screaming people sandwiches.
 

TRITON

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Im having a good laugh at the excuses coming out from those thus far arrested.

" I didnt force my way in, the crowd pushed me in " I didn't bring zip tie handcuffs, I found them lying on the floor I wans going to hand them to a policeman...". "The riot shield and bulletproof vest arent mine, I found them".
Honest Guv...

I was just holding the lectern for someone else......

Incidentally, that retired Lieutenant colonel who had those zip tie handcuffs. I can see that he wanted to be in charge of things if prisoners were taken. He'd likely announce his previous rank and try to set himself up as some sort of leader.

Scary scary people.
 

Jake

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I don't think they set out to fail. I think they set out to not look bad, and that led to failure. I think in the middle of it, they set out not to have a response that looked bad. Several hours later, they finally did something about it. Why did they wait that long? I don't know.
That's plausible. There's a lot of the story still to come out I think. We have certain viewpoints from a few of the actors, but hardly comprehensive and none of it reconciled with documentary trail that tends to straighten things out somewhat. A lot of fingerpointing going on.
 

D_W

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I think it'll take a documentarian and archivist to get enough survey information to piece together the likely truth.

The trouble with political things is that they're like legal defenses. Something occurs. The best sounding answers are overlaid later. Which means anything that's possible could be overlaid to save face vs. what's likely (or much more importantly, a complete unbiased accounting of the truth).

I personally would rather see someone stand up and say "we made a decision to do it this way, we didn't think it would get out of hand, and we thought it would look better if we didn't have a more ominous presence meeting the protesters".

(of course "would look better" would at least be varnished with "would be more fair to the citizens of this great country" or some such thing).

If you think about what the reaction to things is, if you said that, someone would immediately call for resignations. If you instead say "we just need to work on our protocols, we tried, but they didn't work fast enough", people will say "those protocols need to change!!" (and a few cynics like me will say, yeah, OK. protocols. did you ever fail to get to the toilet because the poop protocol was too long?")
 

TRITON

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Guns is quite an emotive subject but I refer to this: -

"The Second Amendment was added because in order to maintain a free state the people must have the right to keep and bear arms, "armed citizens is what keeps the government honest." The people wanted the Amendment because no government would try to take over with armed citizens."

1. The people with guns are now trying to support a dishonest government.
2. Armed citizens with handguns and rifles versus the modern US military? That's going to last what? A few hours?
I've been reading some of the US military forums over what the military thought about the riots and invasion and most are clear that these who forced their way in are traitors.
Whether they would fire upon armed civilians is a completely different matter, not sure they would.

Trump has really caused mayhem, and if it ends up in many people being killed, he's going to have answer personally.

Republicans are conservatives, much like the tories we have.
I dont like the tories but I'd never attack them or act violently towards them or their supporters.

Look at brexit. We lost, but nobody is talking about armed revolt. I think it is a bad idea and leaves us(Britain) in a poor position, but the majority voted leave, so leave it is, whether i agree or not i stand by the result.
At the same time i understand that Britain has always stood alone, it is one of the defining features of being British and has shaped the country and given it it's standing throughout it's history.
All we can do is wait and work and build on whatever brexit gives us.

It is what democracy is all about. Disagree or not, the result is the result and that's the end of it.
 

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I see the DOJ have said they are looking at charges of sedition
At every turn the Democrat party seems intent on creating more friction, more anger, and more divisiveness. Did the left wing protestors who crashed the Kavanough hearings get charged with sedition? Did they get charged with anything at all?

If I had just won won an election, I would be going out of my way to try and build bridges, pour oil on troubled waters and generally calm things down. What I wouldn't be doing is persecuting the opposition in every way possible, unnecessarily impeaching the failed leader, threatening pogroms and "Truth and Reconcilliation" education camps etc. In other words, burning bridges, pouring oil on the fire, and inciting as much violence as possible.

Trump is insane, therefore Trump supporters are insane, therefore....?

Is that really a good way to fix all this chaos?
 

TRITON

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At every turn the Democrat party seems intent on creating more friction, more anger, and more divisiveness. Did the left wing protestors who crashed the Kavanough hearings get charged with sedition? Did they get charged with anything at all?

If I had just won won an election, I would be going out of my way to try and build bridges, pour oil on troubled waters and generally calm things down. What I wouldn't be doing is persecuting the opposition in every way possible, unnecessarily impeaching the failed leader, threatening pogroms and "Truth and Reconcilliation" education camps etc. In other words, burning bridges, pouring oil on the fire, and inciting as much violence as possible.

Trump is insane, therefore Trump supporters are insane, therefore....?

Is that really a good way to fix all this chaos?
er....
The Kavanough hearings cannot be compared and to attempt to is just bloody ridiculous.
" The protesters at those hearings—most of them women, many ... such as shouting out from the gallery, “Kavanaugh can't be trusted! "
You think shouting protests is the same as an armed insurrection, a mob with murder on its mind.

Watch this ? Certainly doesnt suggest the Democrats are stoking the fires of discontent. But it does imply what the US judicial should do with those who attempted to overthrow the legitimate government, by violent armed insurrection.
 

harryc

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Since when can you move on without bringing to charge those who are accountable for the 5 deaths, a police officer doing his job was violently beaten to death!
Maybe in a banana republic but Without justice there is no healing something that the lunatics in the GOP are suddenly so keen on.
 

gregmcateer

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At every turn the Democrat party seems intent on creating more friction, more anger, and more divisiveness. Did the left wing protestors who crashed the Kavanough hearings get charged with sedition? Did they get charged with anything at all?

If I had just won won an election, I would be going out of my way to try and build bridges, pour oil on troubled waters and generally calm things down. What I wouldn't be doing is persecuting the opposition in every way possible, unnecessarily impeaching the failed leader, threatening pogroms and "Truth and Reconcilliation" education camps etc. In other words, burning bridges, pouring oil on the fire, and inciting as much violence as possible.

Trump is insane, therefore Trump supporters are insane, therefore....?

Is that really a good way to fix all this chaos?
Not 100% sure they are proposing pogroms or education camps, but maybe I missed that.

I agree that building bridges is better. The problem is that, excepting the civilised and thoughtful DW on here, the American way with justice is very much about punishment - just look at the size of their prison industry.
Trump is utterly faultless in his eyes, which is hardly surprising if you read any books he's "written" or read/watch any proper journalistic analysis of his upbringing and past behaviour. He is pyschologically incapable of seeing any responsibility or fault in ANYTHING he does which doesn't go well. Take his recent "greatest witchhunt in the history of the US". Already he has forgotten the election fraud witchhunt he has been stoking.

The guy is an eejit. Moving on and building bridges can work between the two parties, but until he is truly out of contention, he will not be able to just shut up and move on without stoking more hatred.

Now even Liz Cheney has come out against him. And we all know the Cheney approach to truth and reconciliation 😳
 

billw

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The American public need to move on, but Trump's political career and ability to continue to influence huge swathes of the population with absolute bullcack has got to be dealt with. Without dealing with the problem at source it's going to continue to cause issues.

“His father trained him to see the world only as winners and losers, and he’s never going to acknowledge he’s a loser,” O’Brien said. “He has no remorse and no regret about any of it. It’s what makes him such a damaged and damaging man. He doesn’t have any of the minimal guilt or regret that a healthy, stable individual has.”
 

gregmcateer

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er....
The Kavanough hearings cannot be compared and to attempt to is just bloody ridiculous.
" The protesters at those hearings—most of them women, many ... such as shouting out from the gallery, “Kavanaugh can't be trusted! "
You think shouting protests is the same as an armed insurrection, a mob with murder on its mind.

Watch this ? Certainly doesnt suggest the Democrats are stoking the fires of discontent. But it does imply what the US judicial should do with those who attempted to overthrow the legitimate government, by violent armed insurrection.
The video is amusingly done about a serious subject - ain't gonna convince any hard line GOP, I doubt. Though the interview with James Comey that comes up afterwards is steady and serious. Comey isn't some far left fruit loop, he's a full on conservative establishment guy. BUT he questioned the Orange One, so had to go. Interesting to hear his comments about the current FBI Director.
 

NormanB

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At every turn the Democrat party seems intent on creating more friction, more anger, and more divisiveness. Did the left wing protestors who crashed the Kavanough hearings get charged with sedition? Did they get charged with anything at all?

If I had just won won an election, I would be going out of my way to try and build bridges, pour oil on troubled waters and generally calm things down. What I wouldn't be doing is persecuting the opposition in every way possible, unnecessarily impeaching the failed leader, threatening pogroms and "Truth and Reconcilliation" education camps etc. In other words, burning bridges, pouring oil on the fire, and inciting as much violence as possible.

Trump is insane, therefore Trump supporters are insane, therefore....?

Is that really a good way to fix all this chaos?
I do not think Biden is making the atmosphere worse and I do not think you can build bridges will those harbouring irrational hate.

Chamberlain thought he was building bridges with Hitler. There is much of Trump that has the ingredients of ‘a despotic leader’.
 

D_W

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Since when can you move on without bringing to charge those who are accountable for the 5 deaths, a police officer doing his job was violently beaten to death!
Maybe in a banana republic but Without justice there is no healing something that the lunatics in the GOP are suddenly so keen on.
Three. One policeman, one woman shot by police, and two trampled. Not sure how you'd charge someone for the two who died of heart attack and stroke.

Also not sure how you think anyone isn't being charged. The arrest rate so far is about a hundred or thousand times higher than the blm riots.
 

D_W

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Comey is not trustworthy, and neither is trump. Among cosa nostra here, comey is widely hated because he would fabricate cases often to put away guys he couldn't legitimately catch. This is with a group where some of the guys now are good friends with honest investigators who caught them. I wouldn't hang your hat on anything comey or Trump says.
 
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