Interesting joint

[dm65]

Blagged a rather nice table on FreeCycle which has an interesting (to me) method used on the m&t joints so thought I'd share a couple of images for your comments

This is the joint where the rails meet the legs, see if you can see the method used that I personally have never come across - not that that mean a great deal tbh

And disassembled .....

I don't think I've ever seen screws used in this way before and I wouldn't mind, but these are lovely tight fitting joints and you would have expected the glue to be strong enough in its day. Whoever built this went the extra mile with 4 screws per joint

Definitely original as there is finish under the screw heads

 

[Peter Sefton]

This does seem unusual. Was the table glued up or was this screwing used for site assembly? If the table was glued then this does seem unnecessary and possibly weakens the construction.

 

[Glynne]

Perhaps the screws were used in lieu of clamps after the glue was applied?

 

[Peter Sefton]

Perhaps the screws were used in lieu of clamps after the glue was applied?

This may have been the intention but they do not pull the joint in the right direction to act as cramps.

 

[dm65]

This does seem unusual. Was the table glued up or was this screwing used for site assembly? If the table was glued then this does seem unnecessary and possibly weakens the construction.

Yes Peter, the joints have been glued and took some separating using spreader clamps

The screws are not angled so I can't see how they would pull the joint together

 

[Jacob]

Agree - the screws don't seem to do anything useful and would weaken the whole thing- a heavy load would split the legs along the line of the screws.
Possibly an over cautious amateur construction?

 

[Peter Sefton]

Agree - the screws don't seem to do anything useful and would weaken the whole thing- a heavy load would split the legs along the line of the screws.
Possibly an over cautious amateur construction?

I agree it seems to be made by someone who doesn't really understand construction techniques.

 

[Jacob]

Also finished on the inside - only an amateur would do that unless the thing had a glass top or something.

 

[dm65]

Also finished on the inside - only an amateur would do that unless the thing had a glass top or something.

Good point re the finish - hadn't considered that

For an amateur, this is pretty good work though and I believe the screws themselves age the construction to a time when diy was unheard of (by todays definition) and certainly tools would have been expensive

As said before, the haunched m&t joints are a lovely fit. Table has what look like Oak rails, not sure what the legs are but a dense material given the weight of them and, also unusually for a table, the top is not solid - seems to be a Mahogany skin on either side (first appearance indicates solid as the grain seems to go through the 'board') with a light wood edging

I will reassemble this later and post some more pictures

 

[Jacob]

Or it's contract furniture over-specified. Looks a bit school/office to me, with blockboard top. This is quite common and as you say - can be deceptive.

 

[dm65]

I think you might have it Jacob =D>

My head's a lot clearer than it was last night when I took it apart :wink: and what I have is a small Mahogany table, shop built as I noticed some writing underneath which stated this was 'stock', no date though, that's a shame

All solid construction apart from the top - it is too light to be solid and does sound hollow !

I have some old blockboard or strip wood veneered shelving that was widely used in schools when I was knee-high to everything and now that is has been mentioned, I'll agree that this is the same stuff - even has the same edging

Mortices are done with a machine as well - I've done enough of these to recognise the marks

I've scraped a bit of the shoddy varnish off as you'll see - any recommendations as to a finish for this ?

On the plus side, if it hadn't been screwed together, it wouldn't have gone up my narrow stairs ! (ok, maybe with the staircase door off)

 

[SpinDoctor]

Agree - the screws don't seem to do anything useful and would weaken the whole thing- a heavy load would split the legs along the line of the screws.
Possibly an over cautious amateur construction?

Agree - the screws don't seem to do anything useful and would weaken the whole thing- a heavy load would split the legs along the line of the screws.
Possibly an over cautious amateur construction?

I agree it seems to be made by someone who doesn't really understand construction techniques.

I'd have to disagree with both of you. What I see is someone that does understand joints well and has devised a slightly different take on a pinned mortice and tenon joint, a technique that's been used for centuries in post and beam construction and furniture making. The screws could serve two functions: because they're steel they act as the draw bore pin, and as the pin itself locking the joint together. If the original maker offset the holes then the screws (as draw bore pins) would draw the tenon in so the shoulders of the rail would be quite tight against the leg... And as was stated there was glue used. This would counter any weaknesses in the legs from leverage and eliminate any splitting. And just as a typical pinned mortice joint, they would not weaken the joint at all and would actually speed the production process up. It shows that the manufacture has an innovative and adaptive head on their shoulders.

YMMV

 

[SpinDoctor]

I think you might have it Jacob =D>

My head's a lot clearer than it was last night when I took it apart :wink: and what I have is a small Mahogany table, shop built as I noticed some writing underneath which stated this was 'stock', no date though, that's a shame

All solid construction apart from the top - it is too light to be solid and does sound hollow !

I have some old blockboard or strip wood veneered shelving that was widely used in schools when I was knee-high to everything and now that is has been mentioned, I'll agree that this is the same stuff - even has the same edging

Mortices are done with a machine as well - I've done enough of these to recognise the marks

I've scraped a bit of the shoddy varnish off as you'll see - any recommendations as to a finish for this ?

On the plus side, if it hadn't been screwed together, it wouldn't have gone up my narrow stairs ! (ok, maybe with the staircase door off)

If it were in my possession I wouldn't do anything to it. It looks like an old school desk or table with a nice used patina to it - it adds to its character.

 

[dm65]

If it were in my possession I wouldn't do anything to it. It looks like an old school desk or table with a nice used patina to it - it adds to its character.

In which case, I have to disagree with you

While a small amount of damage could be called 'character' by some (not me) the top is heavily scratched so will be redone

I'm afraid I'm not into character furniture sold in shops with 'authentic' nail holes and knocks and scrapes - if I buy something, it needs to be pristine

If I made something out of some old wood like these old floorboards I've just pulled, then I would accept the damage, sorry, character but at least I'd know how the damage came about and would still do my best to minimise it (I suspect this thread may go off topic right about now )

 

[SpinDoctor]

I'm afraid I'm not into character furniture sold in shops with 'authentic' nail holes and knocks and scrapes - if I buy something, it needs to be pristine

I guessed i've missed something then. It doesn't look like it was pristine when you bought it .

 

[Benchwayze]

Den...

With regard to your preference for pristine construction and appearance: Things are not always exactly as they seem. If you were to dismantle a piece of Greene and Greene furniture, what you thought was a pegged M&T joint, would probably be a plain screwed fastening. The decorative 'proud' pegs are there just to disguise the screw-holes. A forerunner to Kreg pocket-hole screws? Either way, they do enable the glue to dry without clamping. Yet looking at the final effect who would know? :wink:

Cheers.

John

 

[dm65]

I'm afraid I'm not into character furniture sold in shops with 'authentic' nail holes and knocks and scrapes - if I buy something, it needs to be pristine

I guessed i've missed something then. It doesn't look like it was pristine when you bought it .

You missed by a mile

I scrounged this on Freecycle !

 

[ColeyS1]

What if the screws in the tenon were a little offset - like a drawbore. It might encourage the shoulders to pull up a little ? :?

 

[Benchwayze]

What if the screws in the tenon were a little offset - like a drawbore. It might encourage the shoulders to pull up a little ? :?

Coley,

I don't think it would work. You have to get around the fact that a draw-bore peg works because in effect it 'bullies' it's way into an offset hole, pulling the joint tight. A screw tends to follow the path of least resistance; which is why when re-hanging old doors, you sometimes have to cut a hinge mortice in a different place, because old screw holes, even when plugged, seem to pull the screw towards them! I know this having replaced countless doors in Council Property built in the late 1800s! In the case of your idea, I think the screw would just find the bore and enter at a 'cocked' angle; no torque to pull a joint tight as you envisage. I think.

John

 

[SpinDoctor]

[/quote]

I guessed i've missed something then. It doesn't look like it was pristine when you bought it .[/quote]
You missed by a mile

I scrounged this on Freecycle ![/quote]


Ha yes (insert slap in the forehead smilie here) you did mention that little detail didn't you. When all else fails read the original thread thoroughly